[the_doctah]

Does anyone actually think the problem stops at LucasFilm? It's Disney. They're ruining Marvel properties as well. They care more about pushing progressive ideologies than making a return on investment. How many bad movies and TV shows are they going to push out and then blame bigots when their propaganda fails to entertain?

And then they can't even practice what they preach, removing black actors from posters to placate countries like China. Disney needs to fail.

[taylodl]

> They care more about pushing progressive ideologies than making a return on investment.

Stop it. Just stop it. You know that's not true. All they care about is the money. Ever wonder why everything in entertainment is as bad as it is? Because all they care about is money, not quality.

That's part of what makes Star Wars movies, and not films.

[wnevets]

> They're ruining Marvel properties as well. They care more about pushing progressive ideologies

you sound like someone has never read a Marvel comic book in their life.

[the_doctah]

That's ignorant, I own thousands of both Marvel and DC comics from the 90s and 2000s.

[wnevets]

Not as ignorant as claiming Disney is ruining Marvel by "pushing progressive ideologies"

[mcphage]

And yet you didn't notice that progressive ideology was a big part of Marvel's entire existence?

[the_doctah]

Yes, I know because Stan Lee created the X-men, people love to claim Marvel was always super progressive. I'm sorry, but that simply is not the case, and you are wrong. 99% of comic books I own have zero trace of your supposed progressivism.

[TMWNN]

>Yes, I know because Stan Lee created the X-men, people love to claim Marvel was always super progressive. I'm sorry, but that simply is not the case, and you are wrong. 99% of comic books I own have zero trace of your supposed progressivism.

Correct.

Marvel and DC comics up to a few years ago, and the pre-Discovery Star Trek franchise, shared a broad-church liberal view of the world. Stories that explicitly pushed an agenda for the sake of agenda-pushing were mocked by fans, and other writers would ignore them or explicitly retcon the stories out.

Now we have (no joke) a transvestite member of the Legion of Super-Heroes travel 1000 years to the present day to march in a Pride parade.

[wnevets]

What's an example of Disney "progressivism" that didn't exist in Pre-Disney Marvel?

[the_doctah]

Race and gender swapping every established popular character? Checklist casting? Butchering She-Hulk and The Wasp with this insane "girl boss" fetish (Let's not forget the cringe girlboss moment from Endgame)? Making shows like "Echo" and "Agatha Harkness" that appeal to almost no one for the sake of having female leads?

This isn't even considering the comics, which as an industry, has been dying because of all the same behaviors. Last I heard The Punisher's wife came back from the dead to berate him for killing people and to divorce him.

Who wants to read that tripe? Who wants to listen to Ant-man's annoying daughter lecture people? No one.

[cma]

Didn't Stan Lee push for lots of progressive change, often through his work?

[pneill]

To some extend that's true, but it was always in service of the story. What's happening at Disney is just the opposite - they're randomly inserting ideological stuff which has no relation to the story or they're contorting stories in support of an ideological narrative.

And I don't care what your politics are, but when you insert politics into a story, your gonna alienate a major part of your audience OR you're going to the ruin the product experience of consuming TV. When people sit down to watch TV, they just want to relax and escape. Inserting politics, pulls people out of that and gets their blood pressure up. Who needs that?

We don't need a "very special episode of.." every week.

[slowmovintarget]

Yes. In many cases, it is the ideology that forces the bad story.

In the last two movies, all the men had to fail, the ideological bent to the story required it. That's why we got Luke as a failure, Han Solo as a failure (he couldn't redeem his son, only Rey could through the power of ambiguity), and Finn as a failure.

Imagine if Finn had succeeded in his sacrifice. How powerful would that moment have been?

Instead the story we get is one where morality is an old fashioned idea. Hard work and merit (Jedi training) are "the old rules that are holding you back." We get the whole "there's no good and evil, there's just power." All of which fly in the face of the original world of Star Wars. Patience, self-control, and practice were virtues. Anger, impulsiveness, and fear led to hatred, evil, and suffering -- the Dark Side.

Rey can't be trained, because it would mean a man was training her. Leia can just develop Force powers on her own, because otherwise, she would have had to learn them from a man. Poe Dameron can't have a proper perspective on the battle or be trusted with any plans because the point of his character must be "toxic masculinity."

It made the stories of these movies suck. Contrast that with how Andor and The Mandalorian deliver female characters that are amazing. Leia is a true badass... as she was in the original movies, without the Force. Bo Katan's character goes through a deep understanding of what it really means to lead her people, and earns it. Strong women, that don't require a man to fail, in order to be strong on their own.

[mcphage]

> they're randomly inserting ideological stuff which has no relation to the story or they're contorting stories in support of an ideological narrative

Which bits in particular is this a reference to?

[pneill]

There are lots, but here is one examples:

In "Falcon and the Winter Soldier" there is a random scene where the police hassle Falcon. (this was shortly after tragic George Floyd incident). It wasn't part of the story, had nothing to do with the plot. Why was that there? The first thing they teach you in dramatic writing is cut fluff. That was fluff that just got people worked up.

"She Hulk" also was filled with political narratives.

And again, I'm not taking a political stand here. I'm just saying when I sit down to watch a Marvel show, I want to escape and have fun. I don't want to be reminded of controversial political issues - unless it's essential to the plot. Otherwise, if I wanted to watch a show about politics, I'd just turn on the news for free instead of paying for Disney+.

Side note: I heard second hand from someone who works at Disney that Tune out Times (ToTs)- when a user stops watching a show, spike at these things. The data is telling them they're aggravating their audience, but they just keep on trucking... God knows why. They're a business, not a political activist group.

[the_doctah]

Stan Lee didn't de-prioritize telling a compelling narrative.

[ihsw]

There is a difference between the progressive ideals of the previous generation and the current generation, if anything the current generation of progress ideology is more regressive than anything else.