[Foxhuls]

I would strongly recommend looking at the results people are achieving with Apple’s game porting toolkit just days after it was released. With the hardware that the vision pro is supposed to have, I seriously think it will be the best gaming headset on the market if the final product ends up living up to what was announced.

[machdiamonds]

The best gaming headset on the market would have to be able to connect to a Windows PC. The M2 chip in the headset doesn't have the power to run an intensive game at 4K resolution for each eye. Even if the headset could be tethered to a Mac for additional power, the GPUs in Macs don't come close to the capabilities of the 4090, which itself struggles to support 2K per eye for demanding games. One potential solution could be foveated rendering, which has shown some performance improvements on the Quest Pro and PSVR2, albeit not significantly. However, it's possible that Apple's implementation of this might yield better results.

[byvirtueof]

I still believe that for the masses (think console gamers and pc gamers without the gaming rig) cloud gaming will be the future.

I've been playing fps/rts/rpg games through GeForce Now on a MacBook M1 and so far there's few obvious drawbacks - good internet required, slight input lag which can be annoying for some FPS games sure, and not all games are available yet - but for those who only play a few games regularly, it's also much better than running the game on an i3/i5 Windows laptop.

[machdiamonds]

I agree, the prospects for cloud gaming do seem promising. However, we can't forget that in VR, latency is a much more important factor. One solution could be for companies to establish datacenters near high-population areas to guarantee low latency. But, I believe a more effective approach might involve advanced foveated rendering coupled with technologies like DLSS. At present, it seems like a viable strategy for both Apple and Meta would be to sell "boxes" equipped with console-grade hardware that can wirelessly connect to their headsets, providing additional compute.

[henrikschroder]

> I agree, the prospects for cloud gaming do seem promising.

Every attempt so far has failed, spectacularly. What is promising about that?

[solardev]

GeForce Now, Luna, Xbox Cloud Streaming, PS Cloud, Shadow, and a few others are still around. GeForce Now is especially awesome, being Nvidia's own offering with access to their latest GPUs at a very reasonable price point.

After thirty years of desktop gaming PCs, I sold mine and just use GFN now. It's completely silent (no fan), minor lag (only matters for competitive shooters), and much cheaper than maintaining a high end gaming rig.

Compared to consoles, it has much better graphics, can be played anywhere where you have good internet, supports mouse/keyboard, ultrawide, 120Hz, etc.

Compared to the Stream Deck, it has much better graphics, much longer battery life (it's just streaming video, not rendering on device), and no heat or fan noise. I also sold my Steam Deck because GFN plus a streaming portable (Logitech gCloud) was way more ergonomic.

Did cloud streaming really fail, or is it just a niche? It's come a long way since OnLive. Stadia was a royal fuckup but not because of its technology; Google just had no idea how PC gaming culture works. Their competitors are still around and doing fine, if not making billions.

It is still a very useful tech that I use daily.

[Laremere]

I haven't seen anything about controllers that work with the Vision Pro. Lacking those is a nonstarter for a lot of VR gaming.

[albert_e]

MKBHD reveiw of the AVP says Apple WILL NOT make controllers for the AVP.

That struck me as odd. (Obviously anyone can connect a bluetooth controller and give users some extra control, assuming this device supports open bluetooth for audio etc.)

It is one thing for Apple to claim that their latest gadget does not NEED any controllers for basic navigation and selection. Because they invested so much in perfecting a gensture based system. So far so good.

It is far more presumptious if they say they will NOT allow controllers.

When claiming credit for launching a new space called "spatial computing" -- it is very short-sighted / arrogant to state that a one click finger gesture is all you will ever need for all your comupting needs.

There are games obviously where multiple simultaneous actions need to be triggered. There are 3D modelling applications -- actually a great use case for a AR/VR HMD. And I am sure there are tons of other applications that can benefit from innovative and ergonomic approaches to interactions. Why would Apple go out of their way to say there will be no controllers.

Apple should ideally have an open SDK to allow third party wireless controllers. Knowing apple though ... they will probably sell $499 bluetooth earbuds and call them Apple Ear Pro or something.

[faeriechangling]

I’m sceptical for a very simple reason. When Apple came up with the UI for the iPhone, the functionality of it wasn’t some vague promise, Steve Jobs gloated at length about how intuitive it all was while audiences gasped and applauded over and over. He did this by introducing several new sensors and technologies simultaneously.

Not really seeing that this time around.

[pnpnp]

I think a lot of that was just the Steve Jobs’s presence and presentation style.

It’s pretty bananas they’ve crammed an M2 into a headset with all the cameras, sensors, ML engines, and high res displays. The M2 chip alone (I have an M1 Pro) is still blowing my mind with the low wattage performance.

But much like the first iPhone, it is yet to be seen if it will stick. I do think it’s far more capable than existing VR headsets.

[Foxhuls]

I really think people aren’t putting enough weight behind the fact that it’s going to have an M2 chip in it. Obviously there’s no way to tell if it’ll deliver until it’s released but the idea of having a headset with potentially the full power of a MacBook is kind of insane.

[albert_e]

OTOH wasn't it inevitable -- that small devices of tomorrow will overtake the most powerful cutting-edge gadgets of the past in computing power, storage, performance.

Maybe in a decade small thumb-drives will have an M2 chip equivalent built into them. To encrypt/decrypt data on the fly with zero latency on multiple GB/s data. Or whatever other application can gobble up that much compute power.

[gorbypark]

I think the eye tracking is the multitouch of this generation of devices. It's not a new idea, but it's the first device to ship with it (at least in the "consumer" space). Even if they end up with some sort of controllers in the future, the eye tracking enables so many interactions. Not to mention foveated rendering, which they mentioned in a few of the slides. Basically, render a super high quality dot where the user is looking, and fade out the quality in the peripheral vision. 2x4k screens is a lot of pixels to render, even with the M2 being a decent GPU, but with eye tracking, it's possible to really push the rendering quality.

[throwaway2990]

They have insanely low latency. Every VR has noticeable latency but so far everyone who have tried vision pro says it’s unnoticeable. That’s a huge leap forward. And this is in a device that doesn’t feel like a center block on your head.

[veidr]

I haven't heard that they won't allow them. Just that they won't make them. I suspect it would support Xbox and Playstation and Nintendo controllers at launch, even, since their other platforms do.

However, VR controllers are different in that they need to be tracked as they move through space much more precisely than those console controllers support. But maybe third-party VR controllers can also be supported. I think nobody knows that yet.

[drewbeck]

There's a reference in this developer video [0] to using VR controllers

[0] https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2023/10088/?time...

[veidr]

I guess that makes perfect sense, actually, now that I see they are making such a big push to make Unity games work. Presumably some of those existing Unity games can't work without such controllers.

Good news!

[armadsen]

Yep, they explicitly mentioned (and showed, IIRC) that you can connect game controllers to the Vision Pro. Presumably it will indeed be PlayStation, Xbox, and Switch controllers, as well as the various third party controllers specifically sold for Apple devices.

But no word that I’ve seen on VR controllers.

[numpad0]

If you hold one Apple Remote each on your hands, and your hands were perfectly tracked, isn’t that basically same as Quest 1 with controllers?

[veidr]

definitely not

[bredren]

IIRC, Apple didn’t make a stand to hold the Apple Watch charger either. At least for Series 0.

And, I don’t think they had a stand for the iPhone Magsafe either. Here’s the intro video showing it’s use with just the cable:

https://youtu.be/82po_sYbbio

Both examples strike me as strange since using either without something to keep the charger in place is a joy it setup, possibly worse than trying to keep an 8 pin from falling behind your bed stand again.

Apple doesn’t choose not to make these kinds of things because they aren’t needed. It chooses not to make them to narrow their focus.

Apple had planned to be out of the display market as well.

I believe the Studio display and even the XDR are possibly the result of failing to meet original timelines for Vision.

The company continues to sit out home networking despite the success of AirPort Extreme and generally confusing and messy state of the market.

So it is no surprise to me they wouldn’t be trying to guess at controllers. They are working on a platform.

[drewbeck]

There's a reference in this developer video [0] to "using VR controllers" – I don't think they're going to disallow them, just not make their own.

[0] https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2023/10088/?time...

[silvestrov]

Personally I think this is what has held Pads (and iPhones) back from becoming better at gaming: sometimes a PlayStation style controller is just way better than touch controls on an iPad. Touch controls often don't register with the same reliability as physical controls and it does not have any physical feedback.

Apple should have made a standard gaming control that all games could use.

[veidr]

But the Playstation controller is a (de facto) standard gaming control that all games can use. They just let Sony make it.

(IIRC though Xbox and Nintendo controllers can also be used.)

[EamonnMR]

I've wanted finger guns as an input mechanism since the Kinect disappointed me with its lack of finger gun halo. But the tracking would need to be crazy precise.

[Foxhuls]

As others have mentioned, I’m sure that this will support controllers such as a PlayStation controller like the other iOS devices. I also just personally view this as more of a computer worn on your head than a VR headset. I personally purchased the first Vive that released and sold it shortly after. I’ve also tried a few other headsets afterwards. I have yet to experience a time that VR headsets have seemed to be more than a gimmick for a variety of reasons. From what was showed I think the Vision Pro could be the thing that changes my opinion. I don’t even know that I would personally get one but I do think that if it delivers on the hype that they’ve built, it will the headset landscape.

[jsnell]

You're not going to play VR games with a vanilla console controller. And if you're thinking of emulating non-VR PC games on the headset, that seems like it would not be all that compelling. What's the draw?

[Foxhuls]

I was never talking about VR games, other people keep mentioning them. I brought up the game porting toolkit because of the performance people are achieving on their laptops that have similar or the same apple chip that the headset will have. I understand not everyone will see the appeal of playing regular games on a headset but I feel that it makes sense with what the way they are marketing it. The draw is that I could play AAA titles practically anywhere I want with just a headset and a controller. Those games would appear to be displayed on a full size TV or smaller/larger depending on personal preference.

I have yet to find a reason to buy and keep a VR headset as most things just feel so gimmicky to me. At this point unless you’re either tethered to a more powerful device to be able to do the heavy lifting for the headset or you have a standalone headset that can play some basic arcade like games. A single device that can be taken on the go and play new releases not made specifically for the headset would be amazing to me. Obviously until it’s released who can say what it will actually be capable of but if it has the equivalent power of a MacBook, when my mid 2015 MacBook Pro finally dies I’d honestly consider replacing it with the vision pro but wouldn’t run out to buy one to have in addition to the MacBook.

[lmm]

> You're not going to play VR games with a vanilla console controller.

You might. Flight sims are one of the most immediately compelling things to do in VR, and a controller is a huge step up from nothing.

[fomine3]

Gaming is always 2nd class citizen for Apple. It will continue for Apple Vision

[Foxhuls]

I really don’t think that’s the case anymore after seeing WWDC and what people are doing with the new game porting toolkit. Individuals at their homes have Diablo 4 already running what seems to be flawlessly on their MacBooks using it. Also they brought Hideo Kojima out during the conference to talk about it, including announcing that DS was going to be released on max along with the sequel. I think apple is finally acknowledging gaming exists.

[throw74775]

It’s compatible with any Bluetooth controller, but I see no reason it would be a nonstarter.

Remember it has full hand tracking. If you want to hold something e.g. a lightsaber or whatever, there is no reason not to. An inert plastic prop should work just fine.

[veidr]

I'm not a huge gamer, aside from fitness games like Thrill of the Fight, but I've tried a bunch of VR games just to see.

And there is just no way that a lightsaber game could be good without haptic feedback, in a world where haptic feedback exists. And I think many other kinds of game.

YouTube guy MKBHD even called out the lack of haptics in his initial impressions video, not even for a game: the butterfly flew over to him in the Apple demo, and he held out his finger, and when the butterfly landed on it... nothing. And that was kind of jarring, he said. (And it would be.)

Haptic feedback is a big deal.

[elefanten]

Oculus wands would make a barely more compelling experience of a butterfly landing on your finger.

When Apple’s ready they’ll release haptic gloves that smash that experience out of the park.

[veidr]

Hope so! I would buy them immediately. :-D

(Not holding my breath, though...)

And yeah, the Oculus controllers wouldn't nail the butterfly on finger demo, but if they had controllers, the demo would be a hawk landing on your forearm. (And that would work, even though it doesn't quite make sense that your palm would vibrate when a bird lands on your forearm... but haptic feedback is weird.)

[throw74775]

By haptics you mean a buzzer? That doesn’t replicate any kind of real-world experience.

But again - there is no reason gamers can’t have a control, but it’s silly to use a game controller to interact with a computing environment when you can use your hands.

[veidr]

I am not sure how it works, but what PlayStation calls "rumble". In the light saber game, you can feel it when your light saber hits your opponent, or your light sabers clash, and it absolutely adds to the experience immensely. I think almost all players of those types of game would prefer to have that feedback, barring some kind of disability or something.

I don't think you need the haptic vibration function for interacting with floating menus and the OS, although again it helps for button presses, which is why all smartphones now feature haptic feedback.

But the other reason to use a controller in general-purpose OS use scenarios is precision. If you can directly touch something, then by all means that is the best. But if the menu to be interacted with is too far away, say 8 meters away, all current systems I have seen make you shout a beam out of your hand to the button or object, then do some gesture to click.

A controller is way more accurate for this, kind of how a mouse is more precise for most people than a trackpad. But even more so.

So on all of Meta's systems so far, the controller can more precisely highlight and click things at distance. And I think this holds true for all other currently-available systems as well.

What Apple Vision Pro is bringing that is new, though, is the eye-tracking. Supposedly, it is as good as, or perhaps even better, at selecting an object at distance. If so, then yeah, controllers wouldn't really provide a significant advantage for most non-game activity.

[throw74775]

Yeah - I’ve tried metas controllers and it felt clumsy and effortfull to use the UI. The descriptions of Apple’s eye tracking sound far superior.

Why wouldn’t makers of light saber toys just add a buzzer? That would be far better than a game controller, and super cheap to add.

[jjcon]

Noone wants to use vr with a 2D game controller (a la xbox)- that completely destroys the point. You want spatially tracked controllers that fit each hand and are meant for vr. Even if there are third party controllers that get around the tracking problems, developers won’t have a controller standard to work against

[throw74775]

> won’t have a controller standard to work against

There is no reason this is how it would play out.

[jjcon]

Apple specifically has said they will not have controllers so yeah… that’s already how it has played out

[jachee]

Don’t some of the existing gaming-oriented headsets do hand-tracking now? Does that not translate to controlling games on those sets?

[veidr]

They do. The Quest Pro I have has been getting better and better at bare-hand control with each release. But AFAIK they all come with controllers, and it is the default (and generally is still easier and more precise to use, despite the continually-improving hand tracking).

[MadcapJake]

No, only a small selection of games do hand tracking and it's usually only good if it's been made primarily for handtracking. Even with true hand tracking games, the amount of controls you can do is limited.

[wahnfrieden]

iPadOS and iOS support PlayStation etc controllers so I would expect it here soon too

[detourdog]

Probably true and Apple is smart enough to not talk about the easy stuff or even hype things. The amazing thing is the finger tracking in space.