[weatherlite]

> There's just no reason to do the job when you can get the same compensation working remotely in tech. Looking through the "Who's Hiring" thread is soul-crushing. Physician salaries are the only ones that do not grow relative to inflation and have decreased year-on-year relative to inflation for decades.

What ? Most U.S physicians make 300K + after residency with job security set for life. The real bright ones, the "faang" doctors make close to a million. Show me anyone in tech who can have that guaranteed for him. You're basically guaranteed to join the millionaire club if you decide to work enough years even as a mediocre doctor. Yes its an extremely difficult job I have no argument there, but there's no comparison to tech in terms of compensation or job security.

[jimmydddd]

The job security issue is huge. Many of my tech and finance friends in their early 50's are getting pushed out of their jobs, while my physician friends in their 60's can keep their career as long as they want. A family member recently visited a dr. in his late 70's.

[JJMcJ]

A 50 year old physician or lawyer, if they are good, is at the absolute top of their profession and can 90% expect work another ten or twenty or more years still earning top dollar.

A 50 year old non-management programmer? Look forward to having 23 year olds asking if you know what an array is for the rest of your work life.

[dangwhy]

> A 50 year old non-management programmer? Look forward to having 23 year olds asking if you know what an array is for the rest of your work life.

Fuck. That made anxious. I am close to that age.

Also, my middle manager friends are having much harder time finding a job than programmer types. Don't know if its just them or if its a trend.

[BlackjackCF]

Don’t be anxious.

The best programmers I’ve ever worked with and deeply respect are the ones in their late 50s, early 60s. They’re unflappable when it comes to outages. They’ve seen it all. They work more sustainably and methodically to get stuff done.

[cosmodisk]

No need to. If your experience is solid, there's plenty of work for consultants. Not those types, who walk in and get told to create a CRUD app, but those who can advise on tech, its implications on the business, the risks, etc.

[moneywoes]

Any resources for finding these opportunities?

[weatherlite]

A.I is gonna change the job market so deeply I wouldn't worry much. It's futile to worry, we simply don't know what's coming we only know it will change everything.

[falters]

Quoting ('someone's on the Internet' (-) Messages I read in the last days...):

"And, because the bosses don't want to raise wages?

This is why AI hype is big right now. There's a lot of companies hoping to hawk a snake-oil 'solution' to lower productivity that doesn't require raising wages.

Given that most government accounting is single entry and most macro (-economic-solution) does not really recognise the role of money in the economy, this is in itself quite revolutionary stuff

It's pretty sickening to see how much money is allocated in developed Capitalist economies to (disturbing-kick people-) scams like AI.

On June 15 a session titled 'The New World Economy — Not Global, But Interconnected' will take place as part of the business program on the St. Petersburg International Economic Forum 2023

'It is about an authoritarian communist regime that gave up communist economic policy, but not in other segments. But... It's still a communist country'

> They were told they were building a castle, but instead they built a prison.

The industry term is 'golden handcuffs.'"

...maybe and i hope so there is something to learn from regards...

[weatherlite]

I don't agree about lawyers actually. If you haven't made it into something close to partner level or have extremely valuable knowledge and skillset you'll be seen as a liability. There's plenty of people in their late 20s to early 40s who will be preferred over you. Same goes for most jobs actually, doctors are the outliers. For now...wait till A.I makes progress in medical circles.

[singleshot_]

One fact I can add to your knowledge is that at my firm, the lawyers who have been practicing longest have the highest billable rate.

One more is that I very, very rarely ask any 29 year old lawyers at my firm any questions, although I love them dearly. When I need someone to review my work or answer a ticklish question, I seek out 72 year olds and ask them. I'm not sure who clients prefer but when it comes to legal problems I prefer elder lawyers.

[weatherlite]

Yes they are partner level. How many 50 year old lawyers has your firm hired recently? Ones who haven't advanced to partner?

[weatherlite]

To be clear I'm not saying this never happens (hiring of mid level 50 year olds), I'm just saying it's just as rare as in tech. I don't think I'm imagining this, it's a pretty well established statistic that after 50 job participation rates begin to fall.

[candiddevmike]

It's interesting that places value seniority and experience so much more in medicine vs tech. Things change daily in both fields--new procedures, new findings--yet tech seems to have far more ageism. Why is an older doctor so much more valuable than an older developer?

[haldujai]

I wouldn't say they're valued, the compensation is (with some nuance) based on a work-unit/fee-code which is the same for all of us. The academic component goes up for relevant physicians like it does for any professor-type role.

Doctors work longer mostly because you can't fire them unless they're negligent/incompetent (for various reasons including that most are self-employed/contractors either individually or as a group).

The only value the hospital places on seniority is that you know the local practice patterns so there's less of a learning curve as compared to someone ewer.

> Things change daily in both fields--new procedures, new findings--yet tech seems to have far more ageism.

We have continuing medical education requirements but the reality is most of medicine is designed to be easy and guideline based. Weird and wonderful stuff benefits from experience.

> Why is an older doctor so much more valuable than an older developer?

A 60 year old surgeon is still taking out an appendix, just with newer tools than when they were 30, for the same amount of money as a newer one. I would imagine an older developer would want to be more well-compensated and have career growth focusing on things like architecture or having a team but I defer to practicing developers for their input on why they're not valued.

[sarchertech]

When it comes to value, when my wife interviews for a job (she’s a physician) they fly her out and spend a day taking her to see the sights, so they convince here how great the city is. Then they take her out to a fancy dinner and woo her some more.

When I interview at a new job as a very senior engineer (and relatively well known I in my area), I get to jump through 7 rounds of interviews where someone asks me the equivalent of medschool exam questions.

If I’m lucky my connections might let me whittle the interview rounds down to 5.

There may be 20 people in any given tech stack/industry who are valued the way my wife is by employers.

[haldujai]

> When it comes to value, when my wife interviews for a job (she’s a physician) they fly her out and spend a day taking her to see the sights, so they convince here how great the city is. Then they take her out to a fancy dinner and woo her some more.

Interesting, are these in underserved areas? I just went through interviewing for a new job and despite being in an in-demand subspecialty with desperate employers the most I got was a dinner after the 2nd round interview but no one covered my travel. Do you mind if I ask what kind of physician she is? I clearly picked incorrectly.

> When I interview at a new job as a very senior engineer (and relatively well known I in my area), I get to jump through 7 rounds of interviews where someone asks me the equivalent of medschool exam questions.

> If I’m lucky my connections might let me whittle the interview rounds down to 5.

Why do you think that's the case? Is it a compensation issue or is there age-ism/an assumption that only a 25 y/o engineer can be "10x". I periodically see posts about the challenges facing older developers on HN but I didn't last long enough in tech to understand it.

[sarchertech]

>Interesting, are these in underserved areas? I just went through interviewing for a new job and despite being in an in-demand subspecialty with desperate employers the most I got was a dinner after the 2nd round interview but no one covered my travel. Do you mind if I ask what kind of physician she is? I clearly picked incorrectly.

Pediatric Emergency Medicine. All in cities large enough to have a children’s hospital, so basically minimum metro populations of 500k or so.

>is there age-ism

I’m sure there is, but not really at the principal engineer level from what I’ve seen. Mostly there’s an assumption that staff plus engineers will skew a good bit older.

I think the issue is that everyone cargo cults FAANG interviews. They get so many applicants that they can afford to treat very senior people like new grads, and that attitude trickles down to most other companies.

From what I observed early in my career, there was definitely a time when higher level engineers escaped the FAANG style hazing process. But slowly more and more companies have started putting everyone through the whole thing.

I’ve been at companies where leadership tried to force very well known engineers with decades of experience, hugely popular open source projects, multiple famous talks/blogs/podcasts etc… to do weed out take home assignments.

[singleshot_]

Because technology has no educational pathway. Sure, you can go to a college and study algorithms or math for a while, but plenty of people with "good degrees" can't code. Plenty of people with no degree can.

It's also kind of challenging to tell an eye surgeon whom you are interviewing to do an eye surgery if you're really not sure he knows how to do it or not.

[nradov]

In the corporate world it's routine for employers to cover travel expenses for job applicants coming to interviews that farther than driving distance. Did you ask about that? Sometimes if you don't ask, you don't get.

[moneywoes]

Curious if you could add some color to the switch from tech to medicine

[catchnear4321]

> Why is an older doctor so much more valuable than an older developer?

which would you take with you on a one way trip to a desert island?

that’s a meaningless question, it assumes their jobs are their siloed experience, and that nothing outside of job is real.

training. licensing. you can’t just go become a doctor. yes, there can be new doctors, cheaper, maybe better, maybe not. but the funnel is finite.

got a computer? or a smartphone? device with screen and input? with a little work, you’re gonna be writing code in no time. call yourself an engineer and mostly nobody gets mad that you have no license, no certification, possibly no degree. because none of that matters.

no, that isn’t capturing nuance, context, or detail. just the macro. it’s enough.

[singleshot_]

> which would you take with you on a one way trip to a desert island?

How long are we going to be there?

[catchnear4321]

well, given that it is a one way trip, that’s largely up to you and your travel companion.

[cronix]

I've heard of the "tech bro" stereotype (and seen it many times first hand), but struggle to recall a "doc bro" or equivalent one. I've also never heard of the term "culture fit" when discussing a potential hire in the medical industry like I do tech, software specifically. I wonder if the majority of the types of people who go into tech are different than the majority that go into medicine.

> It's interesting that places value seniority and experience so much more in medicine vs tech

I don't think the tech world devalues seniority as much as they despise people older than them and not of the same generation(ish).

All big generalities and of course don't fit every situation/company/person.

[streptomycin]

Stereotypically, surgeons are the doc bros.

[catchnear4321]

I, too, watched the early 2000s medical sitcom Scrubs, featuring the beloved Dr. Todd.

[treis]

And orthopedics specifically are the broiest of the doc bros

[algkkb]

“When you hear hoof beats think of horses – not zebras”. Old doctors won't catastophize and scare you as much but are in my opinion more likely to misdiagnose a rare disease.

[rs999gti]

> Why is an older doctor so much more valuable than an older developer?

The lower barrier to entry that the developer has?

[dangwhy]

> Things change daily in both fields-

This is not true ?

[ChainOfFools]

As someone in the midst of a difficult career pivot from tech to medicine, I confirm that this is the primary motivation for making the switch at this stage of my life.

[hn976827]

Difference is that in tech you can retire with 50. Few people who still work at 70 do so by choice.

[FrustratedMonky]

That is BS, a big load of BS. There are a ton of people in tech that struggle, and reach 50 just to be nearly living on the street. This thread must have a lot of top FAANG's managers posting this morning.

[hn976827]

> There are a ton of people in tech that struggle, and reach 50 just to be nearly living on the street.

In the literal sense I doubt that. If they are "nearly living on the street" then they seem to have issues handling money. Literally everybody else around then is making less and is not in the street either. Or are you saying that the lady behind the Walmart cashier or the pizza place guy or the girl moving the office lawn all make more than the tech guy? Hardly.

In the figurative sense, sure, some of them may not have a big detached single-family house with two big BMWs in front, but if anything below that is considered "nearly living on the street" then it's your perspective that needs some adjusting, not mine.

[FrustratedMonky]

Perhaps I was over-stating. But it is true, that tech people retiring at 50 and living comfortably is a real small minority, not some common occurrence like everyone in tech is swimming in gold. Living on street was hyperbole, but I do see a lot of tech people working long hours, on -call 24-7, dealing with bad bosses, all because of the 'fear' of living on the street. So maybe they aren't close to the street. And if over 50, that fear drives the 'do-whatever-it-takes-even-if-pulling-another-weekend'. It isn't some golden retirement, that is so bogus. Its like there is some assumption that everyone in tech got stock options at google.

[hn976827]

A more nuanced discussion would perhaps help. You are just jumping between extremes.

Obviously the average tech person can't retire with 50 while living in a golden castle. Nobody claimed that. If you retire that early then you lifestyle needs to match your wallet. I'm not even 50, I'm just below 40, but I could retire tomorrow despite not having worked at Google or similar. Obviously I couldn't own a 1500sqft condo in downtown SF, drive a big car and go on a yacht vacation in Monacco every year. But I could afford a nice place in the countryside and continue with the hobbies I have, none of them demanding big financial resources. It's about lifestyle choices, no matter how much money you have.

[MichaelZuo]

An above average eye surgeon in the US with a few years of experience is the rough equivalent of a middle manager in terms of age and could be in terms of rarity.

[Mordisquitos]

So can many physicians. Furthermore, I'm willing to bet that most doctors in the 50–70 age group that continue to work do so not because they cannot retire, but rather because they do not want to retire because they find their practice fulfilling.

[hansthehorse]

Many of the doctors at the VA I go to are retired then took the VA job. They see 8 to 10 patients a day and spend between 20 to 30 minutes with each. They work 8am to 4pm and go home. On the other hand surgeons and their support staff have crazy schedules.

[haldujai]

Not true, some do (stereotypically the surgeon with 4 ex wives and children that don’t know them) but it really depends on your country/practice pattern.

On one extreme Canadian physicians are (generally) ineligible for pension/retirement benefits. Many US private practice jobs are the same. Academic US jobs usually have some form of retirement support.

Add in the opportunity cost of not earning income until you’re 30+ as well as loans and I don’t think it’s a fair characterization to say “most physicians in the 50-70 age range want to work”, especially full time and considering burnout rates of ~50-60%.

Can’t speak about Europe which has very different compensation structure and debt burden.

[sarchertech]

> Many US private practice jobs are the same.

Where are you getting this from? The vast majority of doctors have access to the same kinds of fixed benefit retirement plans as people in other industries have.

[haldujai]

From my job search as a physician. Literally no private practice job I’ve interviewed at or heard of provides defined-benefit retirement, if you know one let me know. Similarly I don’t know of many non-medicine jobs that still offer this either, but they do offer defined-contribution plans and GlassDoor suggests Google matches 7%.

The super high income (radiology) jobs people are alluding to here (500k-1m) are structured as partnerships that don’t offer employer contributions (depending if you own your own facilities you can potentially exit for a lump-sum at retirement, if you are just part of a hospital based group you don’t have any assets other than the contract so it’s like a 1-200k exit similar to the buy-in).

My surgeon friends in that income bracket are also all fee-for-service/eat what you kill rats that also don’t get employer retirement contributions/benefits or equity. A lot of us don’t even get paid sick days.

The jobs that offer you defined-benefit or employer contributions for retirement are academia or HMOs which is like 250-350k in radiology.

In Canada we’re technically corporations (for tax deferral) and consequently don’t even have RRSP (401k/IRA equivalent) contribution room (unless you pay yourself in salary). But there’s no employer matching/contribution in either case.

[sokoloff]

Very few people in private industry have access to fixed benefit plans (other than social security). Most everyone has fixed contribution plans: 401(k) [or 403(b) for education/non-profit].

[Spooky23]

If you got on the FANG train around the time they dropped the standards and kept the comp going.

Tech is boom/bust. Ask a grandpa who worked for DEC in the 80s how that worked out for him.

[8b16380d]

That’s not true at all.

[chimeracoder]

> What ? Most U.S physicians make 300K + after residency

Most US physicians also pay for a lot of work-related expenses out-of-pocket (insurance, continuing ed, etc), and due to the nature of tax codes, most that often is not actually deductible in practice (particularly since they'll usually end up paying AMT).

There's a lot of variance depending on which specialty you choose and where you work, but as a point of reference: most new attending physicians in metro areas are actually netting less than an engineer in the same area who has been working since graduating college[0]. (And that's before you factor in any student debt, or the opportunity cost of forgoing ~10 years of gainful employment).

> with job security set for life.

May have been true 40 years ago, but definitely not true today, especially for certain fields.

[0] If two people graduate college at the same time, and one goes into medicine and the other goes to work as an engineer, the engineer will easily reach career level (senior) by the time the other person is done with their residency.

[nradov]

All true, but the unemployment rate for licensed physicians is virtually zero. They can always find some kind of job, although they might have to move somewhere undesirable.

[PheonixPharts]

Even now 300k TC is pretty easy to get for any competent engineer wanting to work for a publicly traded company that can get comp in RSUs.

It's also very easy to get a 200k+ remote eng job, even now, that will allow you to spend as much time with your family as you like, rarely have you working past 5pm, and working in predictable, relatively low stress (potentially fun!) problems all day.

The job security is a good point, but job security isn't as meaningful for extremely high stress jobs since the risk of burnout is much higher. Doesn't matter if it's easy to get work if you find that work destroying your personal life.

[soared]

Your circle of 2/300k engineers does not represent average people. 99% of Americans should not be able to get a faang job even if the exact park was laid in front of them before college.

[PheonixPharts]

I have never worked for a FAANG company, or anything close, and can usually not get in the front door at any "prestigious" company.

In my last round of interviews nearly all startups/small companies I talked to where offering 200k+ for remote senior engineers. It's not hard to break 200k remote as a software engineer.

If you're not there I highly recommend you start looking around, even in this market, rather than simply dismissing this comp as "prestigious faang only". Personally I think the 500k+ TCs are going to disappear for all but the rarest of cases (this is closer to what FAANG engs that I know make), but 200k+ is likely to be the baseline for the foreseeable future for experienced software engineers.

[candiddevmike]

I do hiring for small companies, no one is paying that much. 130-150k is base for seniors. Also seeing a decrease in US based developer jobs, lots of offshoring happening. I'm halfway considering moving to Costa Rica and running a firm down there.

[PheonixPharts]

They must be very small because I don't know of anyone hiring senior devs in that range. Even those smaller, early stage companies I know are offering at least 150-190k base, and they struggle to hire.

However if you're dealing with dev roles that are being actively outsourced I suspect you're dealing with an entirely different class of software jobs.

[moneywoes]

Where are you finding these jobs?

[VirusNewbie]

Do you make 300k? You said it was “easy to get” so surely you’re above that?

[PheonixPharts]

Yes and so do all of my teammates and every senior engineer at a publicly traded company you've likely never heard of.

Again it's pretty standard anywhere in tech right now, startup or otherwise, to get 200k base + equity. Technically most startups I've chatted with also offer 300k+ TC... but that assumes the equity component eventually becomes liquid.

Around 200k base is very easy to get anywhere right now, and getting larger than that is a factor of how liquid your equity is. If you join a publicly traded company you should easily be able to get 200k base + 100k/year of RSUs

And to be clear: I'm talking about Senior Engineer level in the US. Most of these roles I've looked at are remote so the NY/SV part is not necessary.

edit: your profile says you work at a FAANG so this should be old news for you.

[VirusNewbie]

I make well above 300k. It wasn’t an “easy” interview by any means.

You can go look at levels.fyi and see that there are plenty of F500 companies that don’t pay 300k for L5. Just spot checked for Ford, Disney, AT&T, Verizon, Target, and more.

[jandrewrogers]

FWIW, 200-300k is not that uncommon far outside of FAANG or the usual tech cities for experienced senior engineers with current skills. We are not even talking startups necessarily but boring industrials and other companies no one thinks of as tech companies. Every large business is being forced to be much tech savvier and this reality has diffused high-paying tech jobs among a much wider range of companies and locales.

You are correct on one point: most Americans don't have the skills for these jobs. That is why these jobs pay so well, almost definitionally.

[foobiekr]

It is trivial, in the US, for someone to work at the older large tech companies and get over $300k just by staying in the job. Your typical SWEIII is making $220k base with a 20% bonus and gets roughly 50k/3 RSU grants each year. After 3 years, that's $50k annual due to stacking. This for relatively easy big company roles, and not even lead.

[wonderwonder]

To be fair, I think op was referring to engineers specifically. You don't need Faang to make 200k as a sr. Look at non tech focused fortune 500 companies. 200k is available to sr engineers, even remote if US based

[foobiekr]

Exactly. Longevity is much greater outside of tech.