[jimmydddd]

The job security issue is huge. Many of my tech and finance friends in their early 50's are getting pushed out of their jobs, while my physician friends in their 60's can keep their career as long as they want. A family member recently visited a dr. in his late 70's.

[JJMcJ]

A 50 year old physician or lawyer, if they are good, is at the absolute top of their profession and can 90% expect work another ten or twenty or more years still earning top dollar.

A 50 year old non-management programmer? Look forward to having 23 year olds asking if you know what an array is for the rest of your work life.

[dangwhy]

> A 50 year old non-management programmer? Look forward to having 23 year olds asking if you know what an array is for the rest of your work life.

Fuck. That made anxious. I am close to that age.

Also, my middle manager friends are having much harder time finding a job than programmer types. Don't know if its just them or if its a trend.

[BlackjackCF]

Don’t be anxious.

The best programmers I’ve ever worked with and deeply respect are the ones in their late 50s, early 60s. They’re unflappable when it comes to outages. They’ve seen it all. They work more sustainably and methodically to get stuff done.

[cosmodisk]

No need to. If your experience is solid, there's plenty of work for consultants. Not those types, who walk in and get told to create a CRUD app, but those who can advise on tech, its implications on the business, the risks, etc.

[moneywoes]

Any resources for finding these opportunities?

[weatherlite]

A.I is gonna change the job market so deeply I wouldn't worry much. It's futile to worry, we simply don't know what's coming we only know it will change everything.

[falters]

Quoting ('someone's on the Internet' (-) Messages I read in the last days...):

"And, because the bosses don't want to raise wages?

This is why AI hype is big right now. There's a lot of companies hoping to hawk a snake-oil 'solution' to lower productivity that doesn't require raising wages.

Given that most government accounting is single entry and most macro (-economic-solution) does not really recognise the role of money in the economy, this is in itself quite revolutionary stuff

It's pretty sickening to see how much money is allocated in developed Capitalist economies to (disturbing-kick people-) scams like AI.

On June 15 a session titled 'The New World Economy — Not Global, But Interconnected' will take place as part of the business program on the St. Petersburg International Economic Forum 2023

'It is about an authoritarian communist regime that gave up communist economic policy, but not in other segments. But... It's still a communist country'

> They were told they were building a castle, but instead they built a prison.

The industry term is 'golden handcuffs.'"

...maybe and i hope so there is something to learn from regards...

[weatherlite]

I don't agree about lawyers actually. If you haven't made it into something close to partner level or have extremely valuable knowledge and skillset you'll be seen as a liability. There's plenty of people in their late 20s to early 40s who will be preferred over you. Same goes for most jobs actually, doctors are the outliers. For now...wait till A.I makes progress in medical circles.

[singleshot_]

One fact I can add to your knowledge is that at my firm, the lawyers who have been practicing longest have the highest billable rate.

One more is that I very, very rarely ask any 29 year old lawyers at my firm any questions, although I love them dearly. When I need someone to review my work or answer a ticklish question, I seek out 72 year olds and ask them. I'm not sure who clients prefer but when it comes to legal problems I prefer elder lawyers.

[weatherlite]

Yes they are partner level. How many 50 year old lawyers has your firm hired recently? Ones who haven't advanced to partner?

[weatherlite]

To be clear I'm not saying this never happens (hiring of mid level 50 year olds), I'm just saying it's just as rare as in tech. I don't think I'm imagining this, it's a pretty well established statistic that after 50 job participation rates begin to fall.

[singleshot_]

I perceive the lateral market for 50 year-old non-partners to be robust and I believe the market for first year lawyers is vastly more challenging. I myself would vastly prefer age and experience in a lawyer to the billable hour vigor of youth.

Do you participate in either or both of those markets? Let’s put it this way: I intentionally left the old tech guy market and I can tell you the old law guy market had no problem supporting me. I am not a partner and (if you believe my boss) I’m not very skilled.

[candiddevmike]

It's interesting that places value seniority and experience so much more in medicine vs tech. Things change daily in both fields--new procedures, new findings--yet tech seems to have far more ageism. Why is an older doctor so much more valuable than an older developer?

[haldujai]

I wouldn't say they're valued, the compensation is (with some nuance) based on a work-unit/fee-code which is the same for all of us. The academic component goes up for relevant physicians like it does for any professor-type role.

Doctors work longer mostly because you can't fire them unless they're negligent/incompetent (for various reasons including that most are self-employed/contractors either individually or as a group).

The only value the hospital places on seniority is that you know the local practice patterns so there's less of a learning curve as compared to someone ewer.

> Things change daily in both fields--new procedures, new findings--yet tech seems to have far more ageism.

We have continuing medical education requirements but the reality is most of medicine is designed to be easy and guideline based. Weird and wonderful stuff benefits from experience.

> Why is an older doctor so much more valuable than an older developer?

A 60 year old surgeon is still taking out an appendix, just with newer tools than when they were 30, for the same amount of money as a newer one. I would imagine an older developer would want to be more well-compensated and have career growth focusing on things like architecture or having a team but I defer to practicing developers for their input on why they're not valued.

[sarchertech]

When it comes to value, when my wife interviews for a job (she’s a physician) they fly her out and spend a day taking her to see the sights, so they convince here how great the city is. Then they take her out to a fancy dinner and woo her some more.

When I interview at a new job as a very senior engineer (and relatively well known I in my area), I get to jump through 7 rounds of interviews where someone asks me the equivalent of medschool exam questions.

If I’m lucky my connections might let me whittle the interview rounds down to 5.

There may be 20 people in any given tech stack/industry who are valued the way my wife is by employers.

[haldujai]

> When it comes to value, when my wife interviews for a job (she’s a physician) they fly her out and spend a day taking her to see the sights, so they convince here how great the city is. Then they take her out to a fancy dinner and woo her some more.

Interesting, are these in underserved areas? I just went through interviewing for a new job and despite being in an in-demand subspecialty with desperate employers the most I got was a dinner after the 2nd round interview but no one covered my travel. Do you mind if I ask what kind of physician she is? I clearly picked incorrectly.

> When I interview at a new job as a very senior engineer (and relatively well known I in my area), I get to jump through 7 rounds of interviews where someone asks me the equivalent of medschool exam questions.

> If I’m lucky my connections might let me whittle the interview rounds down to 5.

Why do you think that's the case? Is it a compensation issue or is there age-ism/an assumption that only a 25 y/o engineer can be "10x". I periodically see posts about the challenges facing older developers on HN but I didn't last long enough in tech to understand it.

[sarchertech]

>Interesting, are these in underserved areas? I just went through interviewing for a new job and despite being in an in-demand subspecialty with desperate employers the most I got was a dinner after the 2nd round interview but no one covered my travel. Do you mind if I ask what kind of physician she is? I clearly picked incorrectly.

Pediatric Emergency Medicine. All in cities large enough to have a children’s hospital, so basically minimum metro populations of 500k or so.

>is there age-ism

I’m sure there is, but not really at the principal engineer level from what I’ve seen. Mostly there’s an assumption that staff plus engineers will skew a good bit older.

I think the issue is that everyone cargo cults FAANG interviews. They get so many applicants that they can afford to treat very senior people like new grads, and that attitude trickles down to most other companies.

From what I observed early in my career, there was definitely a time when higher level engineers escaped the FAANG style hazing process. But slowly more and more companies have started putting everyone through the whole thing.

I’ve been at companies where leadership tried to force very well known engineers with decades of experience, hugely popular open source projects, multiple famous talks/blogs/podcasts etc… to do weed out take home assignments.

[haldujai]

> Pediatric Emergency Medicine. All in cities large enough to have a children’s hospital, so basically minimum metro populations of 500k or so.

Interesting, pediatrics is so underfunded and poorly respected in Canada that I'm genuinely shocked (and pleasantly surprised) to read about a paediatrician not being treated like refuse.

Kudos to your wife though, that's a very challenging field and anecdotally my interactions with peds ER physicians have been overwhelmingly positive. They all seem to have a very well-developed sixth sense about when something is "off" despite many of their patients not being able to talk.

> They get so many applicants that they can afford to treat very senior people like new grads, and that attitude trickles down to most other companies.

Is it just during the interview process or do you find bias against older engineers in hiring decisions and the work environment as well?

[singleshot_]

Because technology has no educational pathway. Sure, you can go to a college and study algorithms or math for a while, but plenty of people with "good degrees" can't code. Plenty of people with no degree can.

It's also kind of challenging to tell an eye surgeon whom you are interviewing to do an eye surgery if you're really not sure he knows how to do it or not.

[nradov]

In the corporate world it's routine for employers to cover travel expenses for job applicants coming to interviews that farther than driving distance. Did you ask about that? Sometimes if you don't ask, you don't get.

[haldujai]

> Did you ask about that? Sometimes if you don't ask, you don't get.

I did not. I think I'm so conditioned to being treated poorly by hospitals I just assume I'm going to be taken advantage of but you're probably right and I should have asked.

[moneywoes]

Curious if you could add some color to the switch from tech to medicine

[catchnear4321]

> Why is an older doctor so much more valuable than an older developer?

which would you take with you on a one way trip to a desert island?

that’s a meaningless question, it assumes their jobs are their siloed experience, and that nothing outside of job is real.

training. licensing. you can’t just go become a doctor. yes, there can be new doctors, cheaper, maybe better, maybe not. but the funnel is finite.

got a computer? or a smartphone? device with screen and input? with a little work, you’re gonna be writing code in no time. call yourself an engineer and mostly nobody gets mad that you have no license, no certification, possibly no degree. because none of that matters.

no, that isn’t capturing nuance, context, or detail. just the macro. it’s enough.

[singleshot_]

> which would you take with you on a one way trip to a desert island?

How long are we going to be there?

[catchnear4321]

well, given that it is a one way trip, that’s largely up to you and your travel companion.

[cronix]

I've heard of the "tech bro" stereotype (and seen it many times first hand), but struggle to recall a "doc bro" or equivalent one. I've also never heard of the term "culture fit" when discussing a potential hire in the medical industry like I do tech, software specifically. I wonder if the majority of the types of people who go into tech are different than the majority that go into medicine.

> It's interesting that places value seniority and experience so much more in medicine vs tech

I don't think the tech world devalues seniority as much as they despise people older than them and not of the same generation(ish).

All big generalities and of course don't fit every situation/company/person.

[streptomycin]

Stereotypically, surgeons are the doc bros.

[catchnear4321]

I, too, watched the early 2000s medical sitcom Scrubs, featuring the beloved Dr. Todd.

[treis]

And orthopedics specifically are the broiest of the doc bros

[algkkb]

“When you hear hoof beats think of horses – not zebras”. Old doctors won't catastophize and scare you as much but are in my opinion more likely to misdiagnose a rare disease.

[rs999gti]

> Why is an older doctor so much more valuable than an older developer?

The lower barrier to entry that the developer has?

[dangwhy]

> Things change daily in both fields-

This is not true ?

[ChainOfFools]

As someone in the midst of a difficult career pivot from tech to medicine, I confirm that this is the primary motivation for making the switch at this stage of my life.

[hn976827]

Difference is that in tech you can retire with 50. Few people who still work at 70 do so by choice.

[FrustratedMonky]

That is BS, a big load of BS. There are a ton of people in tech that struggle, and reach 50 just to be nearly living on the street. This thread must have a lot of top FAANG's managers posting this morning.

[hn976827]

> There are a ton of people in tech that struggle, and reach 50 just to be nearly living on the street.

In the literal sense I doubt that. If they are "nearly living on the street" then they seem to have issues handling money. Literally everybody else around then is making less and is not in the street either. Or are you saying that the lady behind the Walmart cashier or the pizza place guy or the girl moving the office lawn all make more than the tech guy? Hardly.

In the figurative sense, sure, some of them may not have a big detached single-family house with two big BMWs in front, but if anything below that is considered "nearly living on the street" then it's your perspective that needs some adjusting, not mine.

[FrustratedMonky]

Perhaps I was over-stating. But it is true, that tech people retiring at 50 and living comfortably is a real small minority, not some common occurrence like everyone in tech is swimming in gold. Living on street was hyperbole, but I do see a lot of tech people working long hours, on -call 24-7, dealing with bad bosses, all because of the 'fear' of living on the street. So maybe they aren't close to the street. And if over 50, that fear drives the 'do-whatever-it-takes-even-if-pulling-another-weekend'. It isn't some golden retirement, that is so bogus. Its like there is some assumption that everyone in tech got stock options at google.

[hn976827]

A more nuanced discussion would perhaps help. You are just jumping between extremes.

Obviously the average tech person can't retire with 50 while living in a golden castle. Nobody claimed that. If you retire that early then you lifestyle needs to match your wallet. I'm not even 50, I'm just below 40, but I could retire tomorrow despite not having worked at Google or similar. Obviously I couldn't own a 1500sqft condo in downtown SF, drive a big car and go on a yacht vacation in Monacco every year. But I could afford a nice place in the countryside and continue with the hobbies I have, none of them demanding big financial resources. It's about lifestyle choices, no matter how much money you have.

[FrustratedMonky]

That was the claim, I was replying to : "Difference is that in tech you can retire with 50. Few people who still work at 70 do so by choice.".

Saying you can retire at 50 if you choose too, and working is a choice, is completely bogus. You are not being nuanced, you are being misleading.

Nobody is retiring at 50 that isn't very well off. Even with a small house, remember, there is covering health insurance, taxes, food. It is well beyond a large percentage of people.

Spinning it as lifestyle choice is not what was being alluded too. Yes, I could choose to live in a small apartment and live on rice, and thus 'retire'. Do you really think that is what the original post was implying.

"Nice place in the countryside and continue with the hobbies ". I just can't believe the levels of disconnection here. It almost comes full circle, I could 'retire' if I would just choose to live on the street, it's totally a lifestyle choice.

[MichaelZuo]

An above average eye surgeon in the US with a few years of experience is the rough equivalent of a middle manager in terms of age and could be in terms of rarity.

[Mordisquitos]

So can many physicians. Furthermore, I'm willing to bet that most doctors in the 50–70 age group that continue to work do so not because they cannot retire, but rather because they do not want to retire because they find their practice fulfilling.

[hansthehorse]

Many of the doctors at the VA I go to are retired then took the VA job. They see 8 to 10 patients a day and spend between 20 to 30 minutes with each. They work 8am to 4pm and go home. On the other hand surgeons and their support staff have crazy schedules.

[haldujai]

Not true, some do (stereotypically the surgeon with 4 ex wives and children that don’t know them) but it really depends on your country/practice pattern.

On one extreme Canadian physicians are (generally) ineligible for pension/retirement benefits. Many US private practice jobs are the same. Academic US jobs usually have some form of retirement support.

Add in the opportunity cost of not earning income until you’re 30+ as well as loans and I don’t think it’s a fair characterization to say “most physicians in the 50-70 age range want to work”, especially full time and considering burnout rates of ~50-60%.

Can’t speak about Europe which has very different compensation structure and debt burden.

[sarchertech]

> Many US private practice jobs are the same.

Where are you getting this from? The vast majority of doctors have access to the same kinds of fixed benefit retirement plans as people in other industries have.

[haldujai]

From my job search as a physician. Literally no private practice job I’ve interviewed at or heard of provides defined-benefit retirement, if you know one let me know. Similarly I don’t know of many non-medicine jobs that still offer this either, but they do offer defined-contribution plans and GlassDoor suggests Google matches 7%.

The super high income (radiology) jobs people are alluding to here (500k-1m) are structured as partnerships that don’t offer employer contributions (depending if you own your own facilities you can potentially exit for a lump-sum at retirement, if you are just part of a hospital based group you don’t have any assets other than the contract so it’s like a 1-200k exit similar to the buy-in).

My surgeon friends in that income bracket are also all fee-for-service/eat what you kill rats that also don’t get employer retirement contributions/benefits or equity. A lot of us don’t even get paid sick days.

The jobs that offer you defined-benefit or employer contributions for retirement are academia or HMOs which is like 250-350k in radiology.

In Canada we’re technically corporations (for tax deferral) and consequently don’t even have RRSP (401k/IRA equivalent) contribution room (unless you pay yourself in salary). But there’s no employer matching/contribution in either case.

[vibrio]

“ The super high income (radiology) jobs people are alluding to here (500k-1m) are structured as partnerships that don’t offer employer contributions”

Am I reading correctly that having no 401k match would be a concern for someone making $500k-$1m annually?

[sarchertech]

Sorry I invented the term fixed benefit to be in opposition to defined benefit. What I meant was defined contribution.

My wife is a physician, as are many of our close friends. They nearly all work for private groups, and they mostly have some kind of employer matched plan. My wife’s group just directly contributes up to 13% of her salary to her retirement plan through profit sharing.

I know a far higher percentage of non physicians without employee contributions to retirement.

My wife doesn’t get paid vacation, but she only needs to work 12 shifts per month to maintain full time status and she makes more than I do (working only 12 shifts) as a principal engineer.

[mistrial9]

private office physicians, and General Practitioner physicians, effectively were eliminated in rounds of consolidation and changes in insurance practices, by the early 2000s here in California. Second, large areas of low population density have zero local MDs.

[moneywoes]

Just curious are aware how little CPP pays? Why is that even a consideration,I don’t understand.

The vast majority of tech jobs offer no RRSP match as well

Also consider how few faang jobs exist ( especially now) vs physician

[sokoloff]

Very few people in private industry have access to fixed benefit plans (other than social security). Most everyone has fixed contribution plans: 401(k) [or 403(b) for education/non-profit].

[sarchertech]

Sorry I invented the term fixed benefit to be in opposition to defined benefit. What I meant was defined contribution.

Which was my point physicians generally have access to the same plans as other industries.

[Spooky23]

If you got on the FANG train around the time they dropped the standards and kept the comp going.

Tech is boom/bust. Ask a grandpa who worked for DEC in the 80s how that worked out for him.

[8b16380d]

That’s not true at all.