[valec]

this is not true at all. the dissociative effects only last a few hours. the clinical benefit is because ketamine stimulates neurogenesis in the mPFC and hippocampus, restoring plasticity lost in depressed patients.

don't make unsubstantiated leaps :-)

[36933]

Yes the immediate effects last for a few hours. I didn’t say otherwise. The current scientific literature paints a mixed picture of ketamine. While it can stimulate neurogenesis, there is a definite potential for neurotoxicity. Not to mention that there are no long term studies out there. There are countless people reporting being anhedonic after treatments. Only a few people have been reported to not relapse before 24 weeks.

I’m not making unsubstantiated claims. Don’t accuse me of that, because you don’t like my answer.

[valec]

That's not what your comment said at all though.

>Neurotoxicity

unclear. on the onehand, unpublished studies in gorillas show no lesions. on the other, retroactive studies of heavy polydrug abusers show lesions. not super high-quality evidence either way. there's also rat studies showing lesions, but rats are unusually sensitive to neurotoxicity from dissociatives. they get similar lesions from nitrous oxide while humans get no such thing. honestly the potential bladder toxicity is more concerning imo.

>relapse rate

still much better success rates than SSRIs.

not saying ketamine is perfect --- would be better to have a purpose-built drug, and a lot of the clinics are kind of scummy and charge exorbitant prices. but this + non-psychedelic 5ht2a plastinogens are the most promising things to come out of depression research in the past 45 years.

[CapstanRoller]

>Only a few people have been reported to not relapse before 24 weeks.

So what? Ketamine is a treatment, not a cure.

Would you apply the same logic to insulin for T1 diabetes?

[36933]

You are comparing apples to oranges my friend.

[CapstanRoller]

How so?

We don't know of any cure for depression, but with ketamine we have an effective rapid treatment.

Ketamine has a great therapeutic range, a well-understood side effect profile, and can bring a patient back from the brink of suicide in a matter of hours. It's also incredibly inexpensive to produce, on par with aspirin. Why shouldn't we use it?

[36933]

That’s the thing. We don’t know a cure, but we know of people who were cured. We just don’t really know how or why, scientifically speaking. And as far as I know there was never someone getting cured from t1 diabetes. That’s what I meant by apples and oranges.

Ketamine or suffering & death? Ketamine no question. I agree, but it’s not so black and white how you may perceive it. It might be ketamine or death for you, I don’t know. For me it was certainly. So sorry, if it is for you now. I’m not telling you it’s bad or that you shouldn’t do it. Do whatever you think is the best for you. I went through all of that and found other methods of treatment actually effective of solving the root causes of my suffering and not just the symptoms. Meditation, somatic experiencing and mdma therapy[1] are the main methods I found the most effective, in no particular order.

I’m not looking to argue about your choice of treatment. If you want to share your experience or hear mine, give me a way to contact you. Have a good night/day. [1]https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01336-3

[valec]

your link is for PTSD, not depression. no studies have come out so far showing MDMA has any effectiveness in depression. the proposed mechanism for PTSD involves serotonin release leading to heightened extinction of fear memory in the hippocampus and amygdala. no reason to believe necessarily this will help with depression.

[CapstanRoller]

Ketamine saved my life, but I also know people who say MDMA saved their life (and I believe it).

In my case, MDMA would not have been the appropriate treatment.

All of the things we are discussing have value and a role in mental health care. It doesn't have to be a contest.