[gumballindie]

Yeah one of the two is constantly brutalising its neighbours, while the other is busy building tech and defending smaller, but freedom loving, countries. Our grandparents told us stories about the russian army that many found hard to believe. And here we are proven that they were right all along.

[biorach]

>defending smaller, but freedom loving, countries

You mean America was doing the defending? That's hilarious.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in...

And then there's the horror show of American intervention in South East Asia, and then there's the meddle, I mean Middle East.

[capableweb]

The US has been proven to meddle in democratic elections in every single continent, except Africa I think, at this point. But meddling in Africa will surely be made public at one point or another.

[ethbr0]

On the other hand, are we really comparing the leadership of Afghanistan and Iraq to Ukraine and deciding these things are the same?

Last I checked, Ukraine hadn't invaded its neighbors, gassed ethnic minorities, or taken freedom from its entire female population.

The US handled Afghanistan and Iraq poorly, and lied about reasons for going in, but there were actual underlying reasons.

Ukraine is only being invaded because Russia thinks it can.

Hell, Ukraine explicitly gave up its weapons of mass destruction... in exchange for security guarantees... from Russia.

[ForestCritter]

Actually, Ukraine was forcing an ethnic, language and religious cleansing on its people in the two regions that petitioned for sovereignty. Read about this several years ago before all this stuff blew up and propaganda made stuff murky. Their current leader was put in place by a coup. The old regime was corrupt but that doesn't mean the new one is better. Ukrain was already in a civil war.

[ethbr0]

By that standard, the UK, Spain and France are also in civil wars.

IMHO, once military forces reach rough parity, civil wars should never be a justification for external involvement, because it always ends badly.

Internal problems need internal solutions.

If Russia and NATO had both stayed out of Ukraine, it would have been better for all Ukrainians. But we zoomed past the Rubicon on that when Crimea was invaded with actual Russian troops.

[cudgy]

“By that standard, the UK, Spain and France are also in civil wars.”

Nice try. How do these compare at all to the Ukraine Donbas conflict? During the span of 2014-2022, the war in Ukraine (pre Russian invasion) between Ukraine and Donbas region resulted in the following:

Ukraine troops 4,647 killed, 70 missing, 13,800–14,200 wounded

Donbas troops 6,517 killed, 15,800–16,200 wounded

3,404 Ukrainian civilians killed 14,200–14,400 Donbas killed 51,000–54,000 wounded overall

1.6 million Ukrainians internally displaced; over 1 million fled abroad

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas_(2014–2022)

[ForestCritter]

Well, I'm basing my next statement on a statement from an ex military individual from Crimea, but he said that the Crimea business was a backend deal and that the military in Crimea was explicitly ordered to not engage under any circumstance. The Crimea government had no desire to stand. I do agree that Russia and Nato should keep their noses out, but then I also think so should we. Russia being bad guys doesn't make Ukraine good is the point I was trying to make.

[dragonwriter]

> Read about this several years ago before all this stuff blew up and propaganda made stuff murky.

No you didn’t, since the allegation is directed at the post-Maidan Ukrainian government and there has been no time since that government existed that it has not been the target of intense Russian propaganda (and, also, war, the Russo-Ukrainian war having been launched by Russia as a direct and immediate response to the Maidan Revolution.)

[capableweb]

Multiple actors can be horrible at the same time. The US is pretty horrible when it invades other countries, so is Russia.

As far as I know, Ukraine never had a military big enough to actually do any invasion of other countries, but if Ukraine was the size of the US with the military of the US, I wouldn't bet on them not being horrible when invading other countries.

[ethbr0]

Multiple actors can be horrible (<0 ethics), but that doesn't mean that their absolute ethics value is irrelevant, or their relative horribleness to others.

Russia is systematically deporting Ukrainian children to Russia and integrating them into Russian families as a matter of state policy.

They're also indiscriminately bombing civilian targets weekly.

Even during the worst days of Fallujah, the US and UK didn't pull back and just arbitrarily pound the city to dust with standoff munitions out of spite.

Ukraine inherited a substantial amount of Soviet materiel after the collapse of the USSR, as well as the personnel trained in its use, however this quickly deteriorated as the support industrial base was in tatters (in Ukraine and Russia).

But in the early 90s they absolutely could have made a very credible invasion against most of their neighbors. [0,1]

Especially, say, the Cobasna ammunition depot in Moldova that's right on their border with up to 20,000 tons of Soviet munitions. [2]

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nunn%E2%80%93Lugar_Cooperati...

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobasna_ammunition_depot

[ghostwriter]

> but if Ukraine was the size of the US with the military of the US, I wouldn't bet on them not being horrible when invading other countries.

It didn’t stop them from taking part in the invasion of Iraq:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_Mechanized_Brigade_(Ukrain...

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_Mechanized_Brigade_(Ukrain...

[nickpp]

It doesn't even compare. Countries unlucky enough to be invaded by Russia wished we were "conquered" by USA instead.

[inawarminister]

Uh, millions of dead Iraqis and Afghans are going to see your wish and say "sure, why not?"

[gumballindie]

Dont bother, it’s a waste of time. I’ve gotten used to the idea that some people are pure evil.

[alienicecream]

Yes, people that don't agree with you are pure evil.

[cultofmetatron]

> But meddling in Africa will surely be made public at one point or another.

The french has most of africa on lockdown in that regard

[capableweb]

> defending smaller, but freedom loving, countries

Lol.

> Our grandparents told us stories about the russian army that many found hard to believe. And here we are proven that they were right all along.

This is true for any military power, read stories about areas under occupation from "freedom loving" or "non-freedom loving" (?) military groups, and you'll find it is equally horrible no matter what country the groups are from.

[tim333]

Standards change though. I mean a lot of developed nations did atrocities a century or two ago but Russia is a bit behind the times.

[capableweb]

I'm not sure if you count the US as developed or not, but in case you do, here are some highlights more recently than "a century or two ago":

- Haditha massacre

- Mahmudiyah rape and killings

- Abu Ghraib prison

- Enhanced interrogation techniques

- Sơn Thắng massacre

- Countless of others

All by US officials and/or military members.

[nickpp]

Obviously unfortunate, but tiny, isolated and unintended incidents. Handful of victims. Widely condemned by the society. Meanwhile, Russia is bombing countries and killing millions as a strategy of conquest, while most Russian are clapping approvingly.

[capableweb]

I'm not sure if "killing millions" is on purpose a exaggeration or not, but again, Russia is not alone in doing killing and bombing as a strategy (civilians be damned), the US is very familiar with that strategy. Do you think the initial night raid on Iraq was only targeting military targets? They were dropping random bombs on Baghdad. Multiple campaigns of Vietnam were just dropping a ton of bombs all over the country, no matter who it hit (Look up "Christmas bombings").

And lastly, don't forget about the only nuclear bombs that have been dropped have been dropped by the US military. That was indiscriminate killing at a scale never seen before, or since.

Look, Russia is horrible, the invasion is super fucked up, I wish they weren't do that and it'll take a long time before I'll ever forget about the horribleness that Russia put others through, as I've personally helped people being received from Ukraine into the country where I currently live. But that doesn't mean other military powers aren't as horrible as Russia, all of them are, it's their purpose so that's what they do.

[nickpp]

Oh, since you had to go all the way to the Second World War to find some arguments, here in Eastern Europe we remember too. We remember the grandparents gone to Siberia never to return. The hunger. The Red Army atrocities. The Nomenklatura they left behind. The cleansing of anybody with the "wrong" past or connections. The tinpot dictators they propped up. The “wonders” of communism - more hunger. Chernobyl and atomic war rhetoric. Paying with blood to get rid of them in the 90s. The corruption they left behind. Then Georgia. Polonium tea. Novichok. MH17. Syria. Ukraine.

No, millions is not an exaggeration. It’s an understatement. The only thing we reproach the USA: that they didn’t intervene. They were no angels, but there is no comparison. They are not the same and any attempt to muddle the waters and make them all seem the same is a desperate strategy of a falling imperialist power to throw the blame around. But we are immune to this, we grew up with the KGB monitoring jokes and pillow talk. We know this dirty game and here in Eastern Europe your tricks don’t work anymore. We have eyes to see and we know who are the good guys making the unfortunate occasional mistake and who are the pure evil ones.

[ElectricalUnion]

The fact that most of Latin America was or is under non-democratic, rightwing governments is unfortunately not tiny, not isolated, totally intentional, with lots of victims and ignored by society.

[ElectricalUnion]

> I mean a lot of developed nations did atrocities a century or two ago

I wish those atrocities were just "a centrury ago" but they're in fact pretty recent.