[SimonPStevens]

To be a 60 year old software engineer now you would have to have started in 1984. (Assuming graduating age 21 and going straight into work*)

There just wasn't the same number of developers back then.

I can't find good numbers, but according to [1], there were 612,000 developers in the US in 2002, compared to 4.4 million in 2023 in the. It's reasonable to assume that there were probably an order of magnitude less again in 1984. So very little opportunity to become a 60 year old software engineer in 2023.

I'd hazard a guess that in another 40 years there will be a lot more 60 year old developers. (Either that, or zero because ChatGPT 15 has taken over)

[1] - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_engineering_demogra...

* Yes, I know this doesn't quite hold as I'm sure people switched careers. Particularly early on in the computer industry where I imagine many people switched into software from more technical electrical/hardware type roles. But I still think the major point still stands which is the main reason for the lack of older developers now, is just the lack of younger developers 40 years ago.

[petemir]

Adding anecdata, but my mother just turned 70 and is still software engineer (Edit: cobol and rpg still pay off! :)). She never went the manager path, preferring talking with computers rather than humans seems to run in the family :).

[ChrisMarshallNY]

I started in '83 (paid to code, at 84-5).

I would still be working for someone, except the industry doesn't believe that I should be. I was frozen out, pretty hard.

Instead, I work for free. I really enjoy coding, and it's actually been vastly freeing, having my own schedule and structure.

[derwiki]

Could you say more about how you were frozen out? (or link to it if you've already written about it) Thanks in advance!

[ChrisMarshallNY]

Well, it's kind of a well-worn whine, with me. If you browse through my history, you'll see me mention it, from time to time.

TL;DR: I worked four jobs, in my career, with the last one being 27 years (25 of them as a manager, as well as tech). That was at a pretty highfalutin joint (a famous Japanese imaging company).

I finally got laid off, at 55, and started looking for work, and found the culture had changed drastically (I actually had done fairly well at keeping up with the tech, as that was my job). Old people like me, were very unpopular.

The interview process was pretty damn humiliating. It was made clear, that, even if some company did me the huge favor of granting me a job, I would be treated like crap. It was personal. People didn't like me, because of my age. In a couple of cases, they didn't bother hiding it, at all.

I decided "Bugger this for a lark," and retired early. I had the means, but hadn't been planning on it, for at least another decade.

As it has turned out, it was a blessing in disguise. Being able to do my own designs, process, and releasing, has been a joy. I've had to keep the scope humble, but it's really been great. I'm working with a nonprofit startup, where I'm actually helping a few younger folks to learn the ins and outs of what it takes to ship software.

I like working. I would have been happy to work for a great deal less than most folks, was willing to take risks on startups (as I was already set, anyway), had thirty years' experience shipping, would have been loyal, honorable, and had a fairly vast array of skills and experience, but, you know...eewww...gray hair...

[yodsanklai]

It's very sad, and that'll affect most of us. Ironically, with all the "woke" thing going on, you would expect people to be more inclusive, but it's not the case.

[esafak]

Age is not a variable in anyone's DEI calculus.

[ChrisMarshallNY]

Ageism is actually just as illegal as racism, homophobia, sexism, or religious bigotry. Hard to prove, though (unless you are IBM, and discussing it via emails).

It’s just that the American culture, writ large, and, more specifically, the tech industry, has deified youth, to a ridiculous level. It’s sort of a “cargo cult/magical thinking” thing, where people think younger folks can do the impossible, because they don’t have any old people around, telling them that it’s impossible.

Also, my generation has done a pretty good job of screwing things up, and it’s fairly understandable, that the succeeding generations have some resentment, about that.

Eh. It’s water under the bridge, for me, these days. I’m still miffed, but it’s not something I chew over, every night, before bed (I did for a while -I was pissed off). I have lot to do. It would be nice to have the money, and nice to have folks to work with, but I’ve adjusted.

[derwiki]

Thank you for the detailed response--I found this entire subthread interesting!

[pabs3]

What are you working on?

[ChrisMarshallNY]

It’s a “resource locator,” app for iOS, that helps people find other people, and gatherings of a particular organization. Basically, a very simple, secure, social media app.

Quite specific demographic and workflow.

Also, I won’t really be publicizing the app, when it’s done, because the last thing we need, is to have a bunch of curious people, with no interest in the organization, signing up for a quick look-see, then abandoning their accounts.

[gopalv]

> be a 60 year old software engineer now you would have to have started in 1984

My uncle is a 60 year old software developer, but he started writing software much later in life.

He started off in EE working for Sperry, went with the divisions wherever they went and switched over at the ripe old age of 47.

His previous work was all about state machines, so is his new work.

So "40 years of experience" isn't the same as 60 years old developer.

There's more of the EE/Physics grad turned software developer around than people who wrote software in the 80s.

[cdkmoose]

I'll be a 60 year old software engineer next year(class of '87), my brother just retired as a 60 year old engineer(class of '85). We exist but the educational/career pathways at that time were very limited.

[mech422]

I've been programming professionally for 45 years now (55 atm). Started writing invoicing systems on heathkits and database systems for real estate on C-64..then Cobol/PL1,C,Perl,Python.. oh - and I don't have any degree at all.

I'm quite optimistic I'll be able to work another 5+ years, if I choose to..

[mnky9800n]

So a bit more than 1% of all Americans is developing software. I wonder what fraction are truck drivers?

[umeshunni]

Quick search:

> 7.99 million people employed throughout the economy in jobs that relate to trucking activity in 2021

so, about 2.5%

[ptero]

To nitpick, the number of actual truck drivers is likely much lower. My guess is 2.5% includes mechanics, loaders, dispatchers, etc.

[bumby]

ONet lists ~2.1MM tractor trailer truck drivers.[1]

BLS lists ~132MM total 16+ year old workers in the US. Or 117MM working full-time. [2]

So about 1.6% - 1.8% maybe a bit more accurate?

[1] https://www.onetonline.org/link/summary/53-3032.00

[2] https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat08.htm

[mnky9800n]

fascinating.

[Taniwha]

I'm turning 65 in a couple of months, been making a living doing this stuff for money since I was in college - started programming 53 years ago (using cards) - in '84 I moved to the US I think most of the people I worked with then are working now