[wmeredith]

Even if the carbon emissions match, the drivetrain in an ICE vehicle contains 2,000+ moving parts typically, whereas the drivetrain in an EV contains around 20. The benefits of TVs range beyond direct carbon emissions from the power unit.

[sbaiddn]

Look, what follows is my opinion and why Im against EVs for the short to mid term future. Im not a domain expert, but I am a physicist and an engineer whose worked in energy and for the DOE on sustainable energy sources. Again, Im not a car engineer.

Carbon emissions is why we're transitioning. Its why EVs are made mandatory. Its the premise that the EV has to fulfill. Thousands of little ICE parts have little consequence since cars, typically, die for every other reason except engine failure. This has been the case since widespread adoption of automatic transmissions and fuel injection.

The math of EVs is pretty daunting too. Take an EV and ignore its greater sin of creation (ie resources to make one vs an ICE car). Now pretend it runs on pixie dust (ie actually zero emissions).

Now compare that to taking that EV's (electrically) massive battery and, instead hybridizing N number of vehicles. Ive run the numbers, and the EV has (much) greater CO2 emissions.

If you use regulatory power to funnel those batteries to preferentially hybridize contractors' vans and trucks (ie the F-250 and 350, not the wanna be cowboys' 150) the comparison sucks even more.

Note that this analysis uses efficiency numbers from current widespread ICE engines, not rather niche (for the West) CNG cars that can run at very high compression ratios (methane has an octane rating of about 120) and have much higher energy content per gram of CO2.

And you know what the funniest part of all of this is? We could slash transportation CO2 overnight by lowering and imposing lower speed limits.

But again, this is what Ive come to believe with car manufacturer and EPA data in excel. YMMV

[jackmott42]

Can you show the spreadsheet on this EV vs hybridizing N vehicles? Pretty tricky full lifecycle analysis to do. It would be a little bit strange intuitively since hybrids also take a lot of resources to build, as you must build a transmission, an engine, all the infrastructure around an engine, some kind of integration of that engine with the electric motor, AND the electric motor, AND a small battery pack.

Hybrids also have the highest fire risk of all types (EV vs ICE vs Hybrid)

[giobox]

This is the primary reason I wouldn't go back to combustion. The running costs of electric vehicles are absurdly low at times.

You can put 50k-100k miles on most EVs on sale today having only bought cabin air filters, tires and wiper blades in addition to the cost of the electricity - thats largely it!

[sbaiddn]

A hybrid takes care of the brakes. What are the next big consumable in an ICE vs EV? Oil changes? Hardly a deal breaker. Air filters? $10 and often easier to instal than the cabin air filter.

With fuel injection, spark plugs can easily go 120k+ miles. I have never replaced them and no engine Ive owned ever seemed bothered by it.

Spark plug wiring? My uncle did that once on his civic... when it had 180k miles and was 25 years old. He was ready to junk the car, but he ended up driving it until he moved away and sold it.

If your ICE doesn't outlive your car (with regular oil changes) you drive like a maniac or buy cheap cars (you know the brands)

[Scoundreller]

> You can put 50k-100k miles

I get that on my ICE brakes too. My secret? Engine braking and taking my foot off the gas when the light ahead is red: something nobody seems to do sadly.

Are EV suspensions over-built enough to account for the extra weight they’re carrying? Imo that’s the big expense once vehicles start showing their age. Extremely dependent on road conditions though… not great in the salt belt.

[sbaiddn]

Hehe, when I got my brakes done the mechanic assumed I was getting my third set. I told him they were my second set.

He chuckled and said: "I guess you know how to use the down-shifter"

[bmelton]

Doesn't it make more sense to put the wear on your (cheap, easily replaceable) brakes than the (expensive, harder to replace) clutch though?

[sbaiddn]

Manual tranny - blip the throttle before downshifting

Auto tranny - downshift on the crest of the hill (Inlive in a very hilly area. Otherwise I don't bother)

[Scoundreller]

> blip the throttle before downshifting

I'm embarrassed to admit that I don't do that at all. Clutch still good after 15 years.

[jackmott42]

No, all engineers working on EVs forgot to design suspension components strong enough for the mass of the car. At Tesla and Ford and GM they are all idiots.

[Scoundreller]

I know you’re joking, but given consumer indifference to mpg but laser focus on range, I wouldn’t be surprised if weight-reduction-at-all-costs took a front row seat for EVs.

Auto engineers work first for the marketing department. And range sells.

Few buyers run a “10 year TCO and then residual value” calculation.

[brailsafe]

What do you do after? Are you talking used or new?

[giobox]

From new, you will get to 100k miles with the above on majority of decent EVs on sale.

Beyond 100k, there isn't much, but you will likely need to do things like brake disc replacement or some shock work, but the costs are still minimal vs ICE car maintenance at this stage in an ICE car's lifecycle. If you do pads and discs at 100k on an EV, you will generally be good to 200k again. The shock work is no different to what a gas car might need at this stage.

Thanks to regen braking, the lifespan of the braking system consumable components is increased enormously vs combustion.

The batteries are still generally giving useable performance/range up to 300k on a lot of used Teslas, but this will vary depending how the owner looked after the battery. Lots of DC supercharging generates a lot of heat and isnt great for long term range. A tesla mainly charged on AC at home will keep great battery range for a very long time though. I'm planning to keep my EV for a crazy long period of time, given the lack of operating costs. The range loss on an mainly AC charged EV can be surprisingly minimal.

The only fluids are some coolants generally, and those are easily/cheaply replaced usually on a ~10 year cycle. Most EVs are just scaled up electric toy RC cars in terms of their architecture - really! - the number of drivetrain components is incredibly small.

[Scoundreller]

> ICE car maintenance at this stage in an ICE car's lifecycle.

What become the big ICE maintenance issues at this point? I know spark plugs can be a royal pain on some vehicles but at least iridium plugs last a very long time.

(I’ll admit, I’m starting to deal with more seal leaks at 15 years. Need to track it down to avoid adding ~2L oil between my 10k mile oil change. And I’ve been neglecting trans/diff flushes)

My biggest groan over the next few years will be suspension parts and not just the struts. All them “sealed” “forever” control arms and such without grease points, ugh.

[brailsafe]

On Volkswagens it's pretty typical to need to replace the timing belt and water pump because I guess those tend to fail at a higher rate after ~120k

[_hypx]

I hope people realize that fuel cell cars are also EVs, and have only a handful more moving parts to deal with. People have mislead themselves into thinking the BEV is synonymous with all EVs. This type of thinking could easily lead people into making serious mistakes.

[giobox]

The history of fuel cell cars doesn't exactly paint a happy picture...

I think its critically important we have managed to profitably make EVs at scale - no one has ever turned a profit on fuel cell cars, and indeed often sold them at enormous losses. See any of the ones Toyota shipped - the Mirai is sold at an incredible loss.

This isn't to say these can't be fixed, but the best fuel cell cars simply haven't been as good as the best EVs to date accross a number of objective/subjective measures.

[_hypx]

You do realize that BEVs predate internal combustion cars? You could've said the same thing about all EVs just a few years ago.

The problem with BEVs is that they have gigantic resource requirements. It is very much replacing one problematic resource base with another. Fuel cell cars lack this problem. It is not inconceivable that this fundamental problem will force our hand in the future.

Also, like I said, a fuel cell car is an EV. Your story about the Mirai losing money is not different than accusing Tesla of doing the same. Arguably even more absurd, since Mirai should cost less to make.

[giobox]

> You do realize that BEVs predate internal combustion cars? You could've said the same thing about all EVs just a few years ago.

Toyota and others have tried and failed for decades, yes. The order of events is irrelevant to the discussion.

BEV sales managed to reach profitability at scale in less than a decade.

BEVs also have benefit of sharing technologies with many other devices, in a way fuel cell does not - its not surprising to me at all BEV is winning, and by a huge margin.

Supplying and pumping compressed hydrogen at temperatures well below freezing (the typical solution) at the pump is also not all that simple compared to an EV plug or even good ole' gas, and the range offered by the compressed tank is not all that amazing either.

Fuel cell tech will find uses I'm sure, but its not going to be affordable personal transport.

[_hypx]

That is all very selective reasoning. You literally ignored what I just said, in that batteries have huge resource issues and that could force our hand. In the end, there's no coherent reason why one (and only one) type of EV must win.

[giobox]

Whats selective? Look at the world around you - BEV sales are in the millions of units per year. It's just common sense analysis.

Toyota shipped 2000 Mirais in 2022, I feel for the owners.

[jackmott42]

What serious mistake will be made?

[Teever]

Not only that but all the innovations that we see in batteries can trickle down to all kinds of consumer devices.

[sbaiddn]

In the face of civilizational collapse due to taking the wrong strategy vis a vis carbon emissions, my iPhone's battery life seems inconsequential.

[Teever]

I was thinking more like solar panels charging high capacity batteries that allow people to live off grid reducing the need to implement expensive to maintain infrastructure to rural locations.