[rainy59]

Yep same here. Estonia is a dream compared to Bay Area even with the cold winters and old Soviet buildings (which means lots of cheap rent btw). San Francisco has a powerful marketing and promotion engine - and yes it really is a gorgeous city in the late summer - but the weather otherwise is pretty miserable - almost as cold and rainy as Seattle

I'm sure - given the option - any US west coast tech startup would much prefer to operate in some quaint old town in Eastern Europe with the cafes etc. and no need to hassle with a car. Unfortunately the venture community infrastructure / legal etc. is stuck on west coast - and AI is only reinforcing that

[danielrpa]

I'm sure Eastern Europe is great, but if you want to remain in the US there are many other great places to live in the Midwest and American South. You do need a car, which is fine or even desirable for many people (like me).

[graderjs]

I agree. There's dozens of fantastic little cities in the USA, so many to explore. SF sucks, to be sure. Which is sad, because it didn't used to~~and has potential :( ! LA is great (unless you like to complain about traffic). But there's so so many options, and with remote work you should be fine. If your company has to be based in Silicon Valley tho for the Imperial Credits, then--whaddayagonnado? I guess.

[ozarker]

What cities are you guys talking about? My family and I are looking to move somewhere else in the next year or so

[graderjs]

I could only give places that pique my interest and seem good to me. But I don't know what you need specifically. I recommend you get on wikipedia and search a bunch of little places across multiple states, and also search google for things like, "Best towns to live in USA", or "greenest cities to live in USA", or "most outdoorsy cities to live in USA" to start getting lists and knowing more. That's how I started learning about it.

I also really enjoyed learning about all the little places, and it's a bonafide research rabbit hole if that's your sort of thing: weather, taxes, sports, politics, culture, economy, transport, food, history, lifestyle, geography. There's such variety and distinctness! I mean, you can cut the pie anyway you like and I bet there's somewhere in the US to suit you.

[danielrpa]

Atlanta - amazing suburbs if that's your thing. Not dirt cheap, but Forsyth county is reasonably priced and has amazing schools.

[scarface74]

Forsyth is okay as long as you’re not a minority who dares venture into the older parts of Forsyth and stay in the newer parts.

These folks aren’t all dead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WErjPmFulQ0

Source: I lived there from 2016 until last year and I still have a house there.

I moved out of state late last year.

I do love the burbs of Forsyth county though.

[graderjs]

You’re getting downvoted but this is a real thing: for instance, in Belfast, almost everybody is white, so if you’re not white, you’re probably gonna feel a little bit uncomfortable in some places. Just like if you’re white and you go live in the suburbs in Abu Dhabi maybe you’re gonna feel a little bit uncomfortable because you know you’re not part of the dominant race. This is just the unfortunate reality of humans as we are stupidly tribal and racist inherently.

[vel0city]

A few places I've lived / wouldn't mind living from what I've seen of them:

Overland Park, KS

Minneapolis, MN

Colorado Springs, CO

Plano/McKinney/North Dallas, TX

Asheville, NC

Cincinnati, OH

Cleveland, OH

Bellingham, WA

[greedo]

I would recommend looking for a city that has a decent size college or university.

[yesimahuman]

Madison, WI. Love it here and built our company here. But you need to be able to handle cold and snow.

[blantonl]

New Orleans! /s

[selimthegrim]

New Orleans?

[gonehome]

Way more crazy people in LA imo.

SF is a pretty nice place, but you have to avoid tenderloin and soma.

[graderjs]

Yeah, I mean there’s definitely crazy people in LA but they’re not all crazy homeless mentally ill vagrant criminals on the streets late at night sometimes the crazy people are the people you meet in a bar: the crazy Asian girl who you happen to a few seats from, who is drunk, starts slurring at you then when you ignore her slaps you out of nowhere, and has to be taken away by her friends. The bartender apologizes… but that would be assault If a guy did it…girls get away with that shit, with a shrug: “she’s drunk” as if it makes it okay, when it doesn’t. Not a good lesson for people. Or the crazy white who starts chatting to you while you’re playing pool, who’s trying to pretend he knows you but has no clue and starts rambling saying he’s spreading rumors to ruin peoples reputations in China, in Thailand, in Australia.

But even with such nutcases, who you can safely ignore, because they’re just out of their heads clearly, I really like LA.

I find the street people in LA are not as dirty or aggressive as the worst street people in San Francisco. It’s like a Street people in LA still see you is kind of kin. But the street people in San Francisco: you guys are on two sides of divide like you’re from different worlds.

I remember Street people from both cities but I can’t remember like the specific places. I just recall that during the day, San Francisco is a lot worse than LA. More street people more aggressive, more dirty.

This was pre-pandemic, though, so maybe things have changed a lot. Hopefully for the better in all aspects!

[prottog]

The typical reaction I get about the Midwest and the South from coastal people is basically "eeeww".

[ericmay]

Much more likely to die or be seriously injured in a car accident. People get shot and stabbed in Midwestern cities too.

Not to say there aren’t great places to live in the rest of the US. Aside from the sometimes idiotic politics at the statehouse I’ve been fine living in Ohio, for example.

[themaninthedark]

Accidents are just that accidents.

Not saying that we should not try to mitigate and and reduce them.

Shootings, stabbings and muggings are things that require intention.

Unless he accidentally fell on the knife 37 times...

[ericmay]

Well let's not trivialize accidents either. They're still unnecessary and they can be intentional. Off the top of my head the number of road rage incidents involving violence is around 100/200 per year and stabbings are around 1,000. Road rage numbers are increasing as well.

In terms of probability of getting hurt, car crashes dwarf being stabbed so a flight to safety that requires more driving is almost surely increasing your odds of being harmed. Likely the numbers are underreported as well. But headlines get attention. Family of four t-boned in an intersection by a drunk driver just doesn't get the clicks that CTO stabbed in San Francisco does.

Not to say there aren't problems, of course.

[prepend]

The risks aren’t exclusive, they are additive.

Car accident risk exists in both places, the stabbing risk is higher in some.

[ericmay]

Yes but you're not applying the weights correctly.

[RockyMcNuts]

every socioeconomic map of the US looks like this tho https://twitter.com/amazingmap/status/1642644670160175105

[shagmin]

Not saying this is wrong, but it's kind of misleading the same way electoral college maps are misleading. People moving to the south working in tech aren't moving to the vast areas that are plagued with issues. They're moving to metros like Austin, Atlanta, Charlotte, Raleigh, etc., which are on par with life expectancy in California in that map.

[RockyMcNuts]

fair enough ... or Miami ... you're still talking about states where there's lively debate about banning books, banning abortion, putting the 10 commandments and creationism in every classroom (and guns), making it effectively legal to shoot certain people or run them down with your car ... places with not-great schools and health care and culture, with cops and 'community orgs' dedicated to keeping certain people in their place. if you're a tech company and want to attract the best and brightest without regard for color or creed, women, lgbtq, people who think and look different, it's an issue, even if it's in a comparative island of receptivity.

[prottog]

> making it effectively legal to shoot certain people or run them down with your car

> cops and 'community orgs' dedicated to keeping certain people in their place

Come now, that's as exaggerated as saying coastal states have no law enforcement anymore and have taxpayer-funded abortion factories. If there is such a thing as drinking Fox News koolaid, what you're saying is the MSNBC equivalent.

Do you spend a lot of time in the South? I live in a Deep South state as an immigrant and visible ethnic minority. People of different races get along very well here. I used to live in a major coastal metropolis that had BLM signs on every other lawn but effectively zero black people actually living in those neighborhoods. Here? Effectively zero BLM signs, but black and white and other races rubbing shoulders as neighbors every day.

For the past few decades, if you asked black professional athletes what city they were most likely to face overt racism in, it was Boston, not a Southern city.

[RockyMcNuts]

I hear you, I don't live in South but I know people who do, and I see a lot of the mentality of, shoot first, ask questions later, and it goes exponential where someone who looks different is involved

https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/san-antonio-...

https://nypost.com/2022/02/01/dashcam-shows-florida-man-open...

[comboy]

Why Estonia of all the places? I'm assuming you guys were in the situation to choose whenever you wanted to move. Western Europe, Signapore, Australia, Switzerland? Why Estonia?

[logicchains]

Most of those places you mention are relatively hostile to (foreign) startups, Estonia in comparison tries to encourage foreigners to open companies there.

[wizofaus]

How open is it to foreign workers on, say, 12-month contracts? Not that it's something I'm looking for right now but knowing it might be a possibility in a few year's time would be encouraging.

[atlasunshrugged]

They have a specific digital nomad visa in addition to other visa types. I came on an ordinary visa some years ago (American citizen working in tech) and found it quite easy to get visa and bank stuff sorted, that said I was employed by their government.

https://www.e-resident.gov.ee/nomadvisa/

[EiZei]

EU citizens are treated pretty much the same as Estonians and they do have the lowest visa rejection rate in the Schengen area.

[atdrummond]

Very easy to get a short term employment residency for 12 months. You can always convert to the more traditional D Visa if you decide you’d like to stay.

[rvnx]

Low taxes, efficient administration, easy visa, high personal safety (except in case of war), a good marketing as well, and almost all services are now natively in English (living in Estonia for 10+ years, and it wasn't the case before).

[weberer]

>high personal safety (except in case of war)

Estonia is a NATO country, so you should be good unless WWIII happens.

[rvnx]

Article 5 says that in case of an armed-attack of a member of NATO, that other countries have to provide help. Each member of the alliance then decide, about how much help, when and how at their own discretion.

It doesn't necessarily mean that Washington would attack Moscow, and vice-versa or that they would be war outside "disputed" territories.

If tomorrow they have to choose between saving Tallinn or San Francisco, they'll make some choices, but not irrational ones.

The main TV channel in Russia openly threatens of an hybrid-scenario like in 2014 in Ukraine where they sent soldiers without bearing insignias or flags (so officially it was not an attack).

Let's say Estonia is in a situation in some way similar to North Korea vs South Korea.

Very peaceful and nice country inside but with a risk of getting into a dangerous military situation and some support guaranteed by the US and other allies if things goes bad.

The ambassadors of both countries kicked out each other in harsh ways, the customs don't collaborate together anymore, etc.

No panic, but still good to keep in mind, just in case.

[def_true_false]

If you listen to someone like Stoltenberg speak, you will find that he is very clear about NATO's commitments. No "each country would decide how much help", that kind of thing comes mostly from the German speaking circles.

[macintux]

Given how one recent U.S. President allegedly planned to drop out of NATO, that’s no longer a guarantee.

[weberer]

No recent U.S. President wanted to pull out of NATO. The Clinton campaign falsely claimed that Trump did, but he just wanted other countries to pay the agreed upon 2% commitment. And it looks like it worked.

https://www.factcheck.org/2016/05/whats-trumps-position-on-n...

https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/2022/3/pd...

[yks]

Technicalities don't mean much, Russia will make its move not based on technicalities but on the perceptions of other countries' response. Currently the front runners for the next US admin from the GOP side are openly from the "we'll give Russia anything, Putin good" camp so yes, Estonians and other Eastern Europeans are rightly concerned.

[macintux]

This was (again, allegedly) his plan for his second term.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politic...

[rvnx]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/newt-gingrich-trump-would-recon...

"Estonia is in the suburbs of St. Petersburg.

The Russians aren't gonna necessarily come across the border militarily. The Russians are gonna do what they did in Ukraine.

I'm not sure I would risk a nuclear war over some place which is the suburbs of St. Petersburg"

Unless I misunderstand, I already see the speech: "we saved millions of Americans thanks to my mastermind diplomacy, we send our prayers to all our allies, good luck!"

[joenot443]

Is there much of an English community there? How far could one get without knowing Estonian?

[billythemaniam]

At least in Tallinn, most people speak some English. I met a surprising number of Estonians that were fluent too. There seemed to be a love affair with New York City, I saw New York pizza and clothes advertised everywhere in Tallinn.

[rvnx]

Very far, you don't need to speak Estonian unless you plan to work as a local job position that requires doing customer support (such as shop-keeper). In such case (or policeman, lawyers, doctors, etc), it's mandatory to learn the language, and there is a special police that checks if you can speak and write in Estonian (Keele Inspektsioon).

This is done for a good reason, it's to make sure that everybody can get a good service and to protect Estonian heritage and culture (otherwise imagine older people, if their doctor can't speak with them).

You can fully live and work without speaking a single word in Estonian.

It's totally normal here to speak English. Even at the cinema, movies are in English, subtitled in Estonian and Russian. When you go to shop, many products actually have labels in English (or in German).

Estonian is a difficult language, Estonians know about it.

A bit generalising, but to get the idea: Estonians don't want to speak Russian, Russians can't speak Estonian well. So you have this society fragmented in half.

So overall, everybody settles for the easiest language that doesn't upset anyone: English (and German as a fallback).

It's easy to find schools in English too.

Even the tax board speaks to you in English, all the website for public services ( https://www.eesti.ee/ ) is all in English, even all the laws are officially translated in English ( https://www.riigiteataja.ee/ )

To IT foreigners, the country is very welcoming and very very easy-to-settle in my opinion. To other foreigners, it's not true, because it's considered stealing jobs, bringing criminality, etc (basically same stuff that you have to prove when applying for an H1-B in the US)

To get a flat, real estate agents all speak English. They won't get offended if you speak only English, it's normal for them.

Telecom companies speak English. All apps (taxi, food delivery) are in English, because most startups and apps are not made for the local market as its too tiny.

From a political perspective, the country is now pushing more and more English; they'd prefer that you learn English than Russian.

So some shops are even removing Russian, and some administration now addresses you in 3 languages: [Estonian, then in English, and then Russian] (whereas before it was [Estonian, then Russian, and then English]).

The country is very well managed and organised, main issue with the country is:

- Darkness (coldness is fine, but half of the year you essentially live in the dark, almost like if it is always night). Summer is awesome though because you get day and sun almost all the time.

- A really unstable neighbour country on the East (it's not totally impossible that a war could break-out, though unlikely at the moment).

- Taxes may raise in order to fund the current war in Ukraine and balance the government budget.

but otherwise it's a really good place to live and raise a family.

[atlasunshrugged]

I used to live in Tallinn as well (American expat) and echo basically everything rvnx says here. Some of the older people from the Russian community speak only Russian, but you're much more likely to encounter this in Narva (east) than in Tallinn. Estonians are also well aware that they are a tiny country with a difficult language so if you're not permanently settling, there is little expectation of learning more than a few words of Estonian. Super easy to navigate the bureaucracy (if you can even call it that), file taxes, etc.

One thing of note, with the caveat it's been a few years since I lived there (although I stay closely in touch with friends and visit often... actually I am typing this from my airbnb in Tallinn) -- you might get some looks if you're brown or black. From my experience this is mainly from older people and it's pretty benign, but it's not the most cosmopolitan place and most people of color you see are "students" for visa purposes who have been there for many years and work for gig startups delivering food or driving Bolt (Uber equivalent). I never felt unsafe or anything, but there were a few uncomfortable moments during my time there as a person of color.

[AlchemistCamp]

Estonia is on a short list of places I'd consider moving to to found a company if the US weren't an option. My top three would probably be Singapore, Israel and Estonia. Of the three, Estonia is the most budget-friendly.