[benjamoon]

Tesla Model Y Grabs 49% of Denmark’s EV Market in March

https://teslanorth.com/2023/04/01/tesla-model-y-sales-denmar...

This is happening all over Europe and it’s only one of the two insanely popular models Tesla sell. My wife has a Polestar and it’s awesome (second best electric car manufacturer in my mind), but it can’t compete with my model 3.

Try a VW ID and see what you think of the software, in fact try any modern manufacturers software and compare it to Tesla. It’s always junk. The only reason the Polestar is close is because it’s native android running the show.

Tesla have a ton of issues, but the iPhone had a ton of issues when it launched, but if you were shouting about how good your blackberry keyboard was you were having the wrong conversation. I don’t think the other auto companies have embraced the paradigm shift that Tesla have introduced.

[FireBeyond]

> Try a VW ID and see what you think of the software, in fact try any modern manufacturers software and compare it to Tesla. It’s always junk. The only reason the Polestar is close is because it’s native android running the show.

I don't always agree with Tesla's -UX- decisions, and things that are buried layers deep, but their UI is certainly one of the nicest, agreed. But there's more to it than that.

And if the response to that is "Just use voice control", well, then it doesn't matter anywhere near as much that they have the nicest UIs.

The big thing I notice is that a lot of Tesla owners are fully bought into the "dinosaur" hype and think that many Tesla features are exclusive to them.

Meanwhile, my non-Tesla has things like:

- Traffic sign recognition - my car talks to (well, listens to) the traffic lights in my city and actually will show a countdown until when they will change. It will even recognize school zone signs and (at least when they are connected to lights) will recognize when those are active (will display 'school' above the speed limit, regardless, and then blink that if it notes a blinking light associated with that sign).

- Adaptive blind spot - so nice. Speed differential low, or you're going faster? Will not activate, or only activate last moment. But if someone is blowing by you in the HOV lane, it will warn of them when they're still several hundred feet back.

- Laser headlights. Matrix headlights. Night vision with thermal imaging.

- Predictive active suspension - The car actively scans the road ahead with sensors and it will adjust suspension for poorer road conditions.

- The car can not just stop, but will actively swerve, if safe, around obstructions to avoid a collision, or even a parked car opening a door into traffic.

All this in the Model S price range.

[sixQuarks]

You know who else is fully bought into the "dinosaur" hype and think that many features are exclusive to them? Apple/iPhone users. Apple is constantly behind competitors when it comes to cameras and functionalities, but they are still the most valuable company in the world.

[turval]

What kind of car is this? I’m looking for a non-Tesla right now, very curious what the hood options are

[bigfatfrock]

I'm going to guess Audi e-tron based on the feature list.

[poly_morphis]

These are features on most of the mid to high end Audis.

[ern]

What car do you have?

[shakow]

That could be a lot of mid-to-high end cars. Matrix headlight makes me think of Audi, but none of these features are especially cutting edge nowadays.

[jnsaff2]

My Tesla Model 3 has matrix lights physically but not the software to make them actually useful beyond being really nice lights. It does not have any of the pixel control beyond the pointless light show which I have never even tried.

[bboygravity]

And a modern model S does not have those features and more?

(asking because I honestly don't know)

[FireBeyond]

It can "sometimes" recognize traffic lights (I say sometimes, because it also recognizes railroad crossing lights as broken traffic lights).

It also doesn't have traffic light communication. Nor school zone identification.

Predictive active suspension - no. The car treats even road sealant at times as an obstruction.

Will not swerve around another vehicle - only AEB.

[bboygravity]

Predictive active suspension: https://www.findmyelectric.com/blog/tesla-adaptive-suspensio...

Ok, this is just a blog, but it seems to have it (for at least 2 years now)? Or am I missing something?

> Will not swerve around another vehicle

Huh?! Ever seen a recent FSD video? I've even seen it swerve around wildlife?

[FireBeyond]

Tesla's Adaptive Suspension is essentially "adjustable suspension":

> new control settings for Standard and Sport modes allow the driver to adjust the suspension for a smoother or more “road aware” driving feel. Originally a move away from the control structure of the older Smart Air Suspension, the Adaptive Suspension is raised and lowered based on preference selections in the control panel (Never, Always, or Highway) rather than through ride height by increments.

The Audi system does that and a bunch more:

- raises the car for ingress and egress

- It's also meant to absorb the road's pitches and dips by prepping the chassis where appropriate.

- In comfort mode, the front camera pairs up with the steering, which allows the car to feel any unevenness and signal the system to respond accordingly.

- Audi also claims that a "curve-tilting function" cuts down on lateral acceleration felt by occupants.

- "Upon entering a curve, it elevates the side of the body on the outside of the curve and lowers the other side, thereby tilting it into the curve up to three degrees,"

and more.

[solfox]

As a Tesla owner, I find the software to be buggy with a poor UX. I much prefer the CarPlay experience and wish all manufacturers just stopped trying to push software we don’t need.

1. Opinionated “clean” UX has no place in a car. The important buttons need to be bigger and the alerts clearer. Colors need to be employed to draw attention.

2. A shocking number of bugs get released on stable that they fix in the next release. It seems the car prompts you about an update almost every time you drive.

3. It’s annoying to have to rely on two data plans that provide the same functionality - let me use my phone data instead of upselling me on a data plan that I need to have a good experience.

4. It’s super annoying to rely on their Spotify player which keeps getting worse (ie hiding the shuffle button below two levels of tiny arrows - what??)

5. Their voice recognition is awful - worse than Siri. It’s starting to feel extremely antiquated. The fact I can rarely call up the right name to send a message and then have to make several attempts to speak a message - bleh. Will this ever be an enough of a priority for them to compete with google? No, but it’s critical for car software and the gap between their walled garden and state of the art will get worse and worse.

6. They dedicate almost the entire screen to a worthless animation of what the car thinks it sees. Sure it’s “cool” but it’s a waste of precious screen real estate and frankly shows their hand on how bad their camera recognition really is.

The whole thing seems super arrogant to me. Maybe before the age of CarPlay and android auto it made sense to build software as a car company and was a differentiator, but not today - my next car definitely won’t be a Tesla for precisely this reason.

[bottlepalm]

I thought I'd miss CarPlay, but the charger/dock is right under the screen and perfectly visible; so if I need to run an app on my phone it's right there anyways - easy to see and control. Hey Siri works fine for me as well.

CarPlay just seems like a bandaid on bad car software, which still isn't well tied into the car's climate controls or other settings anyway so you have this weird half and half experience.

[katbyte]

Does Tesla support GaiaGPS? Overcast? Audiable? Emby?

The thing that makes CarPlay and android auto great is anyone can write software that pops up on the infotainment screen.

I will never get a vehicle that doesn’t have it again.

[frumper]

GM is reversing course and making their own system and will no longer support CarPlay. Manufacturers want the subscription money and control, I wouldn't be surprised if more pull back.

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1139243_gm-to-phase-out-...

[solfox]

Precisely. And consumers lose out.

[webinvest]

They want the data

[bottlepalm]

I can run those apps on my phone and see them fine from the charger/dock right under the screen.

https://www.notateslaapp.com/images/news/2022/wireless-charg...

[alistairSH]

That's kind of not the point.

Having those apps run on the main screen has advantages... - touchscreen is easier to access - screen is bigger - screen is better placed (less eye movement = safer)

[bottlepalm]

For media apps at least, they can be controlled fine from the buttons to the steering wheel, no need to take your eyes off the road. Any navigation app you're going to have to look over anyways. I've used Waze in a Tesla, didn't take me any more time to look at that than the map on the upper screen.

[katbyte]

That has nothing to do with Tesla thou. You can put a phone mount anywhere you want in any vehicle. The discussion is around Tesla vs CarPlay

[alistairSH]

Why does the climate control need to be in the same UI as the entertainment or nav?

My Honda has physical buttons for HVAC and that's just fine.

What are use cases for fully-integrating the entertainment/nav into the rest of the car? The only one I can think of is coupling nav to battery state management in EVs (and yeah, that's a BIG one).

[bottlepalm]

There's all kinds of integrations - my app can control the climate, the cameras are integrated with data where I can see a live feed of my dog in the Tesla from the app. Physical buttons can't change, while Tesla is constantly improving the UI for things. Hell even watching YouTube in the Tesla will automatically turn off the headlights.

Tesla's software isn't just 'infotainment' it extends to controllers across the entire vehicle - all can be improved with software updates.

[brokenmachine]

>watching YouTube in the Tesla will automatically turn off the headlights

Now I'm picturing a Tesla kool-aid drinker driving down the highway with their fully self beta ludicrous speed engaged, watching youtube with their headlights off.

Don't worry, they'll fix it in the next update...

[solfox]

In fact I believe there have been studies showing how positively dangerous making everything controlled by a touch screen is.

I’m calling it - 10 years from now, a car company will roll out “physical controls” as a feature and it will be heralded as a great advancement in usability.

[ddoolin]

That makes me wonder if there's any development on deeper integration into car systems going on for future models.

[phailhaus]

> the iPhone had a ton of issues when it launched

Tesla came out with their first car in 2008, so we are not talking about a "first gen iPhone" with the Model 3 (which came out in 2017). The point is that Tesla is squandering their huge lead.

[jjoonathan]

> squandering

https://twitter.com/ICannot_Enough/status/161212131982648934...

I wish I could squander like that.

[atourgates]

That's a silly chart.

It's charting % change from 2021 - 2022 vehicle sales.

If you add a couple other manufacturers from the [1] source data, this becomes more apparent. Rivian sales were up 12-million% in the same time period. Doesn't mean Rivian is crushing the market.

This chart is showing that Tesla went from selling 331,000 vehicles in 2021 to 491,000 vehicles in 2022. And while Toyota (by comparison) looks bad on the tweet you linked, they sold about 5x the vehicles that Tesla did in the same time period.

Tesla's growth in that period can largely be chalked up to being "a vehicle manufacturer with EVs in stock and available to sell". That special position is starting to erode, and will erode further with time.

When customers can easily choose between a range of EVs available from a range of manufacturers, things like, "can I trust my vehicle to warn me when I'm about to back into another car" will matter a lot more.

I personally don't think Tesla is going to tank, but I do think they're going to have to work to be competitive to a different standard than they have in the past.

[1] https://www.autonews.com/sales/dec-us-auto-sales-market-slid...

[jjoonathan]

"1/5th the size of Toyota and growing 44% yoy" isn't the insult you think it is, lol.

[temp10298385]

This is not the forum for clever one liners in response to engaging and earnest responses. Please add to the discussion instead of devolving it.

[deanCommie]

Tesla's first car was a six-figure performance vehicle for the rich. It's goal was to make EV's cool and attractive, not for the average consumer.

The model 3 was the FIRST Tesla that the average car consumer could consider actually getting.

[phailhaus]

The Model 3 came out in 2017, six years ago. Again, hardly "first gen iPhone" at this point. But, granted, the Roadster is not a good comparison.

[geoelectric]

Sure, my Ioniq 5’s software isn’t as good as Tesla’s and I’ll never have all those experimental features.

What I do have that a 2023 Tesla will never have, no matter how many updates it gets:

- A dash in my center view that is as or more informative than Tesla’s while driving

- Blind spot camera feeds that pop up prominently on said dash as needed instead of some corner of a tablet in the middle of the car

- A HUD that maps most of the important driving information directly onto the windshield, including navigation arrows “on” the road

- Physical controls I don’t have to look at to find while driving

I also have ADHD. If I look away from the windshield it’s a little random when I get back. Without these types of things that keep my eyes front and center by putting the prettiest lights there, I’ll be in trouble someday, and maybe get someone else in trouble too.

Tesla’s entire car UI aesthetic of drawing attention away from the centerline and then making you search a screen is simply fundamentally flawed and is detrimental to safety. Nobody will ever convince me otherwise because I know it’s detrimental to mine, and I know I’m just a canary. What affects me affects others, I’m just the one where it’s easier to have a consequence.

Plus, to the subject at hand, my Ioniq has parking sensors with collision avoidance and the best 360 view I’ve ever seen, with a 3D reconstruction of your car and surroundings you can swipe around with a virtual camera.

And just to seal the argument, the MY would’ve been cheaper when I bought my Ioniq 5 less than a month ago. I still bought the Hyundai. It’s safer.

PS of all of the features it has, my Tesla MY owning friends seem to want this last one most:

- Sunshade that closes over the roof glass panel

[imbusy111]

I don't want anything but the most basic software in my car. As long as you can plug in an Android device, it doesn't matter - it's not the core competence of an auto maker.

[diebeforei485]

I think you'll be surprised how much of a core competence software is for Tesla.

[p_j_w]

It doesn't matter. Their UI will never be as good as Android Auto or Car Play. They will simply never have the same app support.

[bottlepalm]

Really? Does CarPlay have access to my cars controls, cameras, climate, driving alerts, etc..

Nope, you constantly have to switch between CarPlay and the car's own software to do certain things.

In a Tesla it's all integrated together and works great, CarPlay is unnecessary. If I need to use my phone while driving, the phone's screen is perfectly visible from the charger/dock.

[katbyte]

Personally I don’t want any controls on the infotainment screen behind some touchscreen. Physical buttons are easier, safer, and quicker, as is a well designed HUD.

I consider the fact Tesla requires you to poke around in its software a huge design flaw and safety concern.

I can’t think of the last time I had to use my cars software over CarPlay - all the apps I need are there, and they do things teslas can’t that I rely on

[bottlepalm]

I like the lack of any screen in front of my face - no distractions, just the road. The buttons on the steering wheel are all I need. Voice control works fine as well.

I used CarPlay in my old car, it was great, thought I would miss it in a Tesla, but nope, I can see my phone screen fine from the dock and bluetooth audio works as well.

[diebeforei485]

> I can’t think of the last time I had to use my cars software over CarPlay

This is because most cars other than Tesla have terrible software.

> they do things teslas can’t that I rely on

I'm curious what these are.

[FridayoLeary]

But as long as it is such an important part of the car the software must be at least as reliable and well built as, say, the gearbox. If auto makers want their cars to be rolling computers they have to embrace the technology. Half hearted efforts at touchscreens and ux is not good enough.

[idontwantthis]

And GM has decided to force you to use their software and not plug in Android on all upcoming EVs.

[snarfy]

None of the current electric cars appeal to me. I basically want a 1/1 scale team associated or team losi RC car that I can sit in and drive.

[electriclove]

This is akin to the keyboard argument in the comment you are replying to.

[mattmcknight]

Except that Tesla is the keyboard. They are never going to duplicate every app on iOS and Android, so they should focus on connecting those OSes to their screens, speakers, and physical controls (like volume) rather than build something just for their hardware.

[rootusrootus]

100% agree. One of the most consistent irritations with my Tesla is the inability to use CarPlay. The only thing that Tesla does better is navigation. And even then, it's only because built-in knowledge about superchargers and battery SOC. This information can be made available via CarPlay.

[KingOfCoders]

Coming back from a 1k km trip with a Model YLR. Software was much nicer than VW/BMW/Audi/Renault/GM.

100kw supercharging just worked and got us to a free charger. Really nice compared to the competition.

The one really bad thing was how loud the car was. Wind noise was at 150km/h at a level a BMW had at 190km/h. Also AI/car detection was really bad in (heavy) rain.

(Without rain) Also on German roads, traffic speed sign detection was totally random. Signs not detected, signs detected that are not there. ID3 E.g. had none of these problems I guess b/c they use map data for speed limits not speed sign detection.

All in all I'd nevertheless buy the Tesla not the ID3.

[TeMPOraL]

> Tesla Model Y Grabs 49% of Denmark’s EV Market in March

Inertia. It works both ways - they may coast on their past reputation now, but when the market catches up, they'll find it hard to regain customers even if they course-correct.

[frosted-flakes]

In this analogy, Tesla is BlackBerry, right? BlackBerry was one of the first usable smartphones, developed a huge market share by doing their own quirky thing, then a bunch of new upstarts (Apple, Samsung, etc.) come onto the scene and eat BlackBerry's lunch by actually building what customers want.

[KingOfCoders]

Still think the BB Passport was the best phone ever (keyboard, mouse, form factor) - except phone reception was 0 everywhere ;-)

[jayd16]

>The only reason the Polestar is close is because it’s native android running the show

Well ok, but this is now true for most manufacturers, isn't it?

[frumper]

My wife's Hyundai UI is absolutely terrible, laggy and jumbled mess. It's only usable because you can ignore it and use CarPlay. That requires a physical cable which is annoying.

[typon]

Just test drove an Ioniq 6 the other day. Insanely fast, beautiful and the software is pretty good too. Model 3 doesn't even compete.

[frumper]

What doesn't it compete on? Model 3 is much quicker. Beauty is definitely subjective. I don't love the Model 3, but find the Ioniq quite ugly. They compete on price.

[typon]

Build quality, Model 3 is not "much quicker", Ioniq has a higher range, customer service, interior design, better colors

[frumper]

Model 3 performance is 3.1 0-60, Ioniq 6 performance is 5.1. That’s pretty big. On the low end model 3 is 5.8 vs Ioniq 6 is 8-9 seconds, also much slower.

[cjrp]

What makes the Model Y better than the Polestar?

[dabeeeenster]

I'd like to know this too! I have a Polestar 2 and with the recent software updates, the only thing I feels it is beaten on with the Tesla is that it is a little less efficient.

But for me for looks, interior etc, the Polestar is miles ahead of the Model 3.

[timc3]

It’s cheap for the range you get. That’s about it in my personal opinion.

Prefer Polestar, Hyundai, Kia and a whole bunch of others to Tesla.

[jonny_eh]

The Hyundais and Kias look very competitive on price and features I care about. They actually include Carplay, which should be standard at this point.

[officeplant]

>They actually include Carplay, which should be standard at this point.

You would think, but as soon as I start looking at Bolt EUV's Chevrolet decides to never get my money with their newest announcement[0]

[0]https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a43488135/gm-apple-carplay...

[geoelectric]

The problem with CarPlay in my Ioniq 5, as I detailed in my sibling reply to the post you replied to, is that it doesn't inform the car's own nav-based features like the dashboard directions or the HUD navigation arrow. If I use CarPlay nav I simply don't get those.

I think Chevy is going to Android's whole-car auto system, not just Android Auto. In that system phone based nav probably does do things like inform dashboards and HUDs. And I think Apple has a CarPlay version out or coming that has similar capabilities. Only, Chevy and probably any other manufacturer is not going to make a car that wires two systems all the way through the car.

So I think it's not gonna be just Chevy, and since Android has more design wins announced than Apple as well as probably the brighter future outlook for market share (by way of being hedged across multiple sources) I think you might be looking down the barrel of either this standardizes, or Apple's out.

[geoelectric]

Just keep in mind the tradeoffs. For example, I was thrilled to get CarPlay in my Ioniq 5 until I realized A) it's wired, as I guess there's some exclusivity deal Apple has for wireless in cars with their own nav, and B) I lose features like the HUD-displayed navigation arrows, since that only works with native nav.

Upshot is I end up using native nav and really only use CarPlay for phone-based audio apps. I've only had the car for a few weeks, so maybe I settle into a different pattern long-term but I doubt it. I bought it for stuff like HUD-based nav, so having it be either/or probably means no CarPlay.

[greatpatton]

The Polestar 3 (a SUV like the Y) is almost twice the price. The Polestar 2 is a very good answer to the Model 3, and you can even upgrade it with a lidar.

[poutine]

Charging network is the big one, the degree of which would vary based on your location.

[karmelapple]

The Ford software seems fine. The latest update to the Mach-E lets me control many things onscreen with a physical knob, which is great (and I think not something Teslas do), and I want Apple CarPlay for everything else anyway.

[manojlds]

First Tesla came out 1 year after the first iPhone