[voidfunc]

You're not wrong - The real problem is I don't give a shit about the product. I'm here to make money and retire. It's the companies job to either figure out to how to eliminate needing me or make the job compelling enough that I give a shit (which is extremely difficult).

[flyinglizard]

I always tell our candidates that the only thread connecting all our employees — some as young as 20, other 50+, some are mechanical engineers, some technicians, others are algorithm researchers etc - is that all of them personally care about doing a good job, just like a craftsman of old who is proud of their work. It makes for an awesome work environment, even if slightly emotionally elevated.

[8note]

I assume they all see through that, and that the common thread is that they all are paid to be there?

If you stopped paying them, would they stay?

[ip26]

They are paid to be there instead of somewhere else that would also pay them for the same craft. You can care about compensation and your craft together.

Say you took pride in your skill as a smith. That’s hardly incompatible with finding an employer who will pay for making quality armor.

[coldtea]

Pride in their skill has nothing to do with staying at a company. They can take pride in their skill as a smith elsewhere too. Even better at their hobby projects.

Pride in the end product might, but most companies make nothing to be proud about, except the skill itself.

So, let's be real, they are at the company to make money, and if they have a better chance, they'll take it. Lack of those, good enough salary already, inertia, and "the devil you know" is closer to the reason they stay.

[Aeolun]

> They can take pride in their skill as a smith elsewhere too.

I can take pride in my skill anywhere I want. What I care about is that my employer takes pride in my skill.

Even if another pays more, I’d prefer working for someone that appreciates my skill (and shows that in ways not necessarily salary based).

Of course there’s a limit to this, but it’s generally true.

[ip26]

Reflecting, I think people who take pride in their skill do like to work with others who feel the same way. So that could be a factor for why here for $X instead of there for $X

[eastbound]

I pay my employees 30% above market rate. I know that because I negotiate their salary to hire them, then 6 months later I add 30%. I also care deeply about then finding a girlfriend, a house, a motorbike or anything that’s good for them and that they say they want, and I’m happy when they do.

I also have to tell, honestly, they give me shit. They act like “Yeah we don’t care that your business survives, it’s your job to make your company earn money. At worst we’ll find a job elsewhere.” I’m constantly tempted to fire them before they tank my company.

[fullshark]

I care about being a professional, and delivering quality work. That's not the same as caring about a product/company.

[lisasays]

I care about being a professional, and delivering quality work. That's not the same as caring about a product/company.

Right - it isn't altruism; it's basic professionalism - and the only psychologically healthy thing to get through the day, actually.

"They're paying me decently, they don't take me for granted, don't get in my way of helping them and they definitely aren't jerks. So why not do a good job?"

Actually caring about the product/company doesn't need to factor into it.

[rektide]

It's wild host so many companies make doing the right thing extremely hard. I've never been at a big org, and sometimes we are super profitable & trying to make big long term investments in the future, and folks seem to want to rush & smash code & go go go.

My pace has almost always felt a bit off, but I've always hated shipping subpar systems. Whether it's other engineers or some local managers or the business, there's always been extreme pressure in competition with my desire to just do a good damned job.

It's been isolating & draining. Sometimes it's just a matter of spending 3x as long as it would have taken to line up the 300 reasons why at each spot the shit slapdash plan is shit and the good plan is good. Trying to be OK with the process, walking through people who really barely can understand any of... You have to just keep saying to yourself, fine, this is my job, I'm the expert, it's OK that you don't know, & I'm not sure that you do need to know, but here we are & this talking it through is how we're going to decide where we go I guess.

[YuriNiyazov]

I’m usually on the other side of this. I regularly request that people spend 3x the time it would take something to prove to me that it’s a good idea, so maybe let me offer you some perspective - the outside view, if you will.

The primary job of an executive is risk management. Let’s say I run an engineering team where people have good ideas 70% of the time, and bad ideas 30% of the time. Famously, it takes 10x the number of resources it originally took to develop and deploy, to remove a bad system from production and replace it.

.7 * 4 + .3 * 3 = 3.7

.3 * 11 + 0.7 = 4.0

An engineering team that doesn’t take 3x the time it takes to do something to verify it ahead of time is actually slightly less efficient overall ( assuming that 3x the time it takes reduces the error rate to 0)

Yea there are lots of simplifying assumptions here, these are all averages, plans don’t all take the same time, etc, etc, etc, and a more sophisticated system would take it all into account. But the results don’t usually change, unless in very special circumstances.

[cgio]

If this is the commitment offered by employees is there an equivalent offered by the employer? I.e. how does that affect lay off decisions? If the assumption is that employee passion will keep the ship afloat, then how is that reflected on compensation and profit shares? I am all for dedication and have mostly been passionate about my work, but with my eyes open that this is a one way game, and I play it to feel better myself with a risk of even bigger disappointment when reality hits.

[neilv]

I can believe that's a common value at a company, and I'm a little surprised that some others here can't believe it.

I'd add to that: for all but the most intractably huge companies, there's a somewhat different, or additional, atmosphere that I think is even more important: everyone is focused on the success of the project/company.

Put another way: if you could somehow omnisciently and top-down get each person individually coordinated such that all they need to do is their complete their assigned tasks on schedule and with high quality, that'd be great. But, realistically, you can't (well, not in innovative startups, nor in a lot of tech work). So, if you can get people thinking and coordinating towards goals beyond whatever task someone told them to do, then then you can be more effective collectively.

Maybe you the craft you had in mind already implicitly encompassed this focus towards larger goals. But if you look at popular modern methodologies, organizational incentives, etc., it's pretty clear that's not implied many places.

[tayo42]

Theres a differences between caring about me your work as a craft, and caring about the meaningfulness of the work.

I care about the quality I'd work I do, I feel it's a reflection of me, even though it find the product to be pointless

[flashgordon]

Out of curiosity - and I mean this in earnest:

* What response do you get from the candidate?

* How do you account for candidates who might be faking enthusiasm due to need for a job?

* How are you measuring this enthusiasm within the company (ie are you having high employee survey scores compared to what you are paying them)?

Like seriously the "we are making the world a better place" only goes so far - especially in a climate where employers have shown who they truly care about. And may be you are suggesting that you might not be messaging that you are making the world a better place and instead everybody gets to be a davinci?

[fzeroracer]

I think the mistake you make is assuming that being proud of your work also means being proud of where you work.

I personally do care about doing good work and ensuring what I do is well thought out and performant. However that does not mean I always care about the company. And what little care I do have can rapidly be eroded.

Workers nowadays are more aware than ever that you pay a passion tax. If you want to work where you really want to work, then companies know this and will take advantage of it.

[throwaway292939]

As an aside: I wonder what you say at interviews