[RedCondor]

I'm Latin American and very, very happy we have China as an alternative to America's tyrannical Monroe Doctrine.

The demonization of China feels incredibly absurd, like when someone wearing an exceedingly ugly outfit, lacking self-awareness, tries to criticize someone else's fashion.

[albertopv]

And yet you are writing it on an american website and no one is censoring you. In China you have to be very careful of what you say and write, or you may just disappear from society, they don't need to kill anyone anymore, they even did it to former president, live. They remove you and that's it.

[RedCondor]

In America, working class people get killed by cops and corporations with little recourse.

In China, elites get disciplined by the party with little recourse.

It's a matter of which class you see yourself in.

>According to Harvard University’s large-scale 2003-2016 study tracking the evolution of public opinion via 32,000 individual respondents, at the time of the study’s conclusion “95.5 percent of respondents were either ‘relatively satisfied’ or ‘highly satisfied’ with Beijing.”

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-sur...

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[m00x]

Working class people get killed in China too.

My friend's wife's family completely disappeared because they said something bad about the local government on WeChat. Their house was empty when she went to check up on them (after COVID). Neighbors said the police came in and they haven't seen them since. She now blames herself for not bringing them to Canada.

The reason the surveys are so high is because they fear it's a trap. If someone asks you if you like the government, your answer better be an outstanding yes.

[nebukhadnezzar]

Full mask off now, who would want to live in a democracy if you can live under the boot of an authoritarian narcissistic personality cult.

[dang]

This sort of flamewar will get you banned here, regardless of how right you are or feel you are. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.

If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.

[brankoB]

What democracy? Citizen interests haven't mattered for a looong time.

[roca]

Really? Why is Biden canceling student debt then?

[krapp]

He isn't. State governors sued him over the potential loss in tax revenue and SCOTUS is likely going to rule against it because the court is stacked with right-wingers. Also see gun laws being nowhere near as strict as people would like, and Roe v. Wade being repealed, with hard anti-abortion laws and bans being enacted in states where a majority of citizens are pro-choice. The politics of the general American populace is far to the left of what the spectrum of "left" to "right" within the government allows.

The only citizens whose interests really matter in the US are conservatives, Christians and (of course, because the US is an oligarchy) billionaires. Everyone else is a serf who takes whatever scraps fall from the table.

I mean, Americans are bringing child labor back. Do you think the majority of Americans support child labor? No. Does it matter? No, because even with a Democrat (ostensibly 'leftist' but, being pro-military, pro-cop and anti-labor nowhere near it in practice) in charge, American laws are moving further right than ever.

[roca]

So the Biden administration isn't really trying to cancel student debt? They are faking the attempt, secure in the knowledge that courts will strike it down? That sounds like an A-grade conspiracy theory to me.

> The only citizens whose interests really matter in the US are conservatives, Christians and (of course, because the US is an oligarchy) billionaires. Everyone else is a serf who takes whatever scraps fall from the table.

So all my non-conservative, non-Christian, non-billionaire Bay Area tech worker friends, who are doing very well for themselves, are "taking scraps"? Come on, that's ludicrous.

[dkjaudyeqooe]

Do you mean like you demonise the United States?

Lacking self-awareness indeed.

[fortuna86]

Your account was created 15 days ago and is used exclusively for posting inflammatory political nonsense. Also, you do realize that China is the most hyper-capitalist country in the world, don't you?

[RedCondor]

I'm just a communist programmer that hasn't been here for ages because I got bored of the hive-mind. Literally anything left-of-right-of-centre immediately gets flagged (if not outright banned by the mods), all in service of sheltering little liberal coder worker bees from scary labour propaganda.

I came back for a bit to get the latest on ChatGPT, and then noticed that, unsurprisingly, this place is crawling with demented Chinaphobes spreading whatever third-hand hearsay they can find about China. I'm vastly more knowledgeable about this subject than probably everyone here, and have tested my resources against way more capable critics, so sharing some disruptive well-chosen resources here and there isn't too hard.

The fact that the average stance here is something like "I'm not a Marxist, I don't like Marxism, I don't actually know much about Marxism, but I do know this: China isn't Marxist" is just hilarious to me.

[dang]

> Literally anything left-of-right-of-centre immediately gets flagged (if not outright banned by the mods)

The other day I heard it was "the non-Maoist stuff that dang & HN mods censor" (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35166791), "when did HN get taken over by commies" (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35078024), and "there are plenty of Marxist-Leninists here" (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34344096).

Oh and then there's "Dang is a totalitarian liberal thought policeman", "banned every single prominent right winger", "extremely left-winged", "most people on HN are liberals", "socialist hell-hole", "this site leans left", "leftist bots", "always politically left", "skews quite left", "Obviously this website is rigged for the liberal agenda", "the level of wokeness is just absurd", "leftist ideological echo chamber", "run by radical leftists, so no surprise", and much more: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26148870.

[RedCondor]

Someone may get called lots of names from "both the left and the right."

It doesn't mean they have, therefore, achieved some kind of enlightened balance.

The fact that you can cite a lot of angry right-wingers trying to pull discourse in their direction through whining just means there's a lot of right wingers posting here trying to form critical mass, as one would expect given the composition of America as a country.

You don't get more of those kinds of critiques from communists because 1) there's barely any communists here and 2) we don't argue like that.

Pretty fair modding, though. GJ.

[fortuna86]

I didn't ask who you claim to be, i'm pointing out what you are.

If you actually care what China is, which it appears you don't. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarian_capitalism

[robomartin]

[flagged]

[dang]

Please don't use HN for nationalistic or political flamewar, and please don't cross into personal attack. We ban accounts that do these things.

If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.

[imiric]

I think GP is delusional, but you're not seriously suggesting Latin American countries vilify the US for no reason, right?

US interventions in Latin American affairs are well documented[1].

You can't just kick the can to Spain, when the US had a much more direct and recent involvement. It doesn't seem you learned much from your time there, as this history is discussed openly and known in detail, from school children to people who actually lived it. The resentment towards the US is very well deserved, in most cases.

Regardless, this is not a thread about the US, so let's not feed GP's whataboutism, and keep acknowledging how evil China is.

[1]: https://faculty.chass.ncsu.edu/slatta/hi216/hi453time.htm

[RedCondor]

It's fitting that you tried to cozy up to that American guy by 1) demonizing a fellow Latin American, a 2) regurgitating American lies you've heard about China and never scrutinized, and that your reward for it was being treated like a still-too-uppity subject.

Maybe one day you'll strike out on your own.

[robomartin]

> you're not seriously suggesting Latin American countries vilify the US for no reason

I am stating an absolute fact:

In LATAM, blaming others for everything is a national sport. And the US is a favorite bad guy. I can't tell you how many times I have heard this in person in the context of social gatherings, local news and even government/political party communications.

The point is they blame it all on the US. Always.

I did not say the US and other nations have no fault at all. There are subtle and not-so-subtle dynamics at play here.

It's funny how is never their fault. Ever. I guess these are all perfectly run nations and big-bad-USA comes in and fucks them up all the time. Otherwise, it's pink unicorns and bubble-gum for everyone. Right.

World politics being what they are, yes, of course, countries will take advantage of each other when possible. There is no way to claim any nation is without fault in any comparison. Today, China is taking advantage of LATAM in more ways than one...and the people actually think it is a good thing.

The other thing you have to remember is that LATAM governments have been corrupt forever. Entire generations of political families have enriched themselves and their extended circles at the expense of the people and countries. They make deals with countries like the US and international corporations and then turn-around and royally shaft the entire nation. The easiest way to explain things not working when you steal hundreds of millions of dollars and ruin the country is to blame others.

Stories abound of LATAM governments inviting external investment only to later nationalize the companies boosted by this investment and kicking the investors out. They appoint brothers, cousins, family members, extended allies, military leaders to run and pillage the companies and enrich the ecosystem that supports them. Then they turn around and blame others, the US, the IMF, anyone.

I mean, the military government of Argentina invented an entire war over islands nobody gave a shit about just to defocus from the horrors they created.

So, yes, blaming the US for everything isn't only unfair, it's stupid. These countries would have done far better over time had they made an effort to create solid lasting partnerships with the US. Quite a few of these countries could have been manufacturing hubs for world products. That requires focus, hard work, dedication, stability and more. The US and Europe would have gladly outsourced such work to LATAM nations. It didn't happen because the corruption in these nations turned them into sad circus acts everyone took advantage of whenever they could. I know it hurts to put it this way, yet this is the truth.

Trust is a delicate thing. Once you lose it, the only people who are going to engage with you are those who are going to ensure ROI by taking every possible advantage. And you have zero negotiating power. Once again, I point to what China is doing in LATAM.

> You can't just kick the can to Spain, when the US had a much more direct and recent involvement.

Not kicking that can so Spain at all. Spain's legacy is a culture of corruption and a range of social issues Gloria Alvarez discusses in detail in the video I posted. I have not been able to find a version in English, sorry.

[gyaru]

> The point is they blame it all on the US. Always.

Maybe because historically the US has been behind a lot of things?

> Trust is a delicate thing. Once you lose it,

Exactly, people simply do not trust the US in countries where they have meddled in. Rightfully.

Ridiculous to make this into a sob story about people vilifying the US "unfairly".

[robomartin]

You are missing the important point: The blame for all negative outcomes in LATAM is alway, always, always outward-facing.

If you observe what they are saying you’d think these are perfect societies where everyone would have pink unicorns and bubble gum, were it not for external evil actors. And, of course, the US and the IMF are at the top of the blame list.

[RedCondor]

I can't imagine literally submitting a House.gov link and some gusana YouTube clip link to try to tell a Latin American that they need to side with the U.S., to save themselves from China.

Y'all live in your own little reality.

[robomartin]

> I can't imagine literally submitting a House.gov link and some gusana YouTube clip link to try to tell a Latin American that they need to side with the U.S

Second, if you studied Logic at all (obviously not) you would understand that attacking the source is one of the fundamental logical fallacies. In other words, you have no point at all. You can't insult Alvarez and point to House.gov and invalidate what they are saying.

And, of course, calling a woman trying hard to make a difference in LATAM a "worm" is really classy on your part.

Por favor, educate porque realmente no tenes idea de lo que esta pasando en America Latina. Ni idea.

https://www.clarin.com/politica/avance-chino-neuquen-anos-im...

https://www.clarin.com/economia/the-economist-argentina-desa...

https://www.clarin.com/new-york-times-international-weekly/e...

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S187046541...

Etc.

[RedCondor]

This is so funny to me.

Good luck with the whole "empire in decline" coping process.