[throwaway11823]

Earlier today I sent my SO a long string of text messages about a problem that I was having, including one of them that said "I feel like garbage." I was feeling really down. They didn't respond to any of the text messages; when they got home, I asked them about it, and it seemed like they just sort of skimmed them and they didn't notice that one in particular. I didn't mention it; I just let it go.

Do I "not understand how I feel" because I feel lonely right now? Or is communication not a one way street? Most of the time when I miscommunicate with someone, I find it's as much about their not wanting to understand as it is about my being unclear.

As a man, I have lots of people in my life who love me, but they consistently fail to take notice of my emotional needs. When I express that I have emotional needs, all I get in response is a "deer in the headlights" look, from other men, from women, from parents, from friends, from my SO. So usually I just keep them to myself because I don't see the point in asking for something that someone can't offer me - a tremendously lonely experience. Do I "not understand myself?" Am I not speaking clearly enough? No, the idea that I might need something from the people who rely on me terrifies them, and they freeze up and stutter and generally are unable to offer me any assistance.

And of course, I'm sure all of us experienced during the pandemic the loneliness of not having access to other people or being able to fulfill your social needs - distinct from the loneliness of being with people who don't understand you.

[fleddr]

"As a man, I have lots of people in my life who love me, but they consistently fail to take notice of my emotional needs."

Although every man's circles are different, your experience is highly common. I'm going to intentionally dramatize a little to get the point across efficiently.

Men effectively live in an emotional desert. Showing emotion, vulnerability or dependency is discouraged, dismissed or even ridiculed. Men lack a support system. They're often the last buck and there's nothing or nobody to back them up.

This is why to many men, their relation with their mother is holy. It's often the only source of genuine unconditional love and a safe place to be vulnerable. Of course, you can't even have that, this too is to be ridiculed, hence the many "your mum" jokes.

When men get sick, they're ridiculed for being such a baby. Here too a rare sign of vulnerability expressed is to be laughed at.

Men are judged by utility. Society doesn't care about men's needs or problems. They are willingly sacrificed in war, work, homeless on the streets, and in suicide without this even being a topic of mainstream interest.

The handful of reasonable feminists spotting how this complete indifference is a problem are shouted down by their radical counterparts, that have seized the movement. Not only is there no mainstream culture to care about men, it's openly hostile to men in general.

If I were to post my little lecture on a social network, I'd be piled on with: "oh you poor man, you have it sooooo bad lmao!!!"

Anyway, I know none of this helps, but I just wanted to share that your experience in many ways is the experience of many if not most men. And I think you analyzed the situation very well with the "deer in the headlights" remark.

[throwaway11823]

Thank you for sharing. It is definitely underappreciated how the patriarchy simultaneously oppresses and privileges men. I'm sorry if you've had bad experiences with online dog-piling, but I'll note that understanding intersectional feminism has been important for my own personal understanding of my gender and the ways it negatively impacts my life (or positively for that matter). I think dog-piling is universal and a product of unhealthy discourse and the way online spaces erases nuance.

[fleddr]

The female part of the patriarchy (a word I hate) is not to be underestimated. The idea that men should be more in touch with their emotions is nothing but a narrative, reality is exactly opposite to it.

Women do not select for emotional men. They select for status, wealth, attractiveness. Only when those qualities are met FIRST, perhaps you may also share some feelings here and there, but do keep that shit in check.

The above sounds brutal and primitive, but every social study and dating research confirms it. And it makes perfect sense as it 100% aligns with biological incentives, as much as we want to deny those.

[throwaway11823]

Friend, I tell you truthfully that you are buying into a conspiracy theory, propagated by people like Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate, which is not a true reflection of reality.

Men shouldn't be in touch with their emotions to attract women - they should be in touch with their emotions for their own well being.

The idea you're expressing is called hypergamy, and it's more of a caricature of human courtship than anything. There are women who are attracted to status and women who are looking for someone with emotional sophistication and there are millions of other things they might look for. They aren't robots; they don't behave in unison.

The other idea you're touching on is evolutionary psychology, the idea that human behavior stems from certain knowable evolutionary pressures. This makes sense at first glance but it ends up being a way for people to dehumanize others and use scientific language to justify the belief that a certain group of people are robots operating under a known ruleset. It's a rationalization of prejudice.

Evolutionary pressures are so vague and difficult to know, and sexual selection in particular, that you can justify anything with this framework. Try this on for size; "women disproportionately bear the cost of childbirth, so they're incentivized to select for partners with a high degree of emotional maturity, because these partners are more likely to attend to their needs during pregnancy, withstand the often traumatic stress of parenting an infant, and to be caring parents who will pass on these high-value traits to their male offspring." Is that any less sound an argument than that they select for high social status, or physical strength, or what have you?

I'd really encourage you to look into criticisms of these ideas. Unfortunately I don't have a lot to offer as far as places you may start, I've routed through my browser history and turned up a couple things that might interest you:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/18/style/jordan-peterson-12-...

(Non-paywall: http://web.archive.org/web/20230115075145/http://www.nytimes...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWoJDpNsQQw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgO25FTwfRI

[fleddr]

No, I'm not an incel, as that it was you seem to imply. I'm happily in a relationship for 15 years. I'm not on board with characters like Tate and Jordanson, they opportunistically exploit a symptom: a total lack of care or interest in men's wellbeing.

"Men shouldn't be in touch with their emotions to attract women - they should be in touch with their emotions for their own well being."

And the point of this discussion, what started it, is that they can't. Those feelings are ignored, dismissed and ridiculed.

[throwaway11823]

I'm glad to hear you aren't an incel, and you have my sincere congratulations on 15 years of marriage, that's wonderful. I 100% agree with you about Tate & Peterson.

I think it would be worth considering that the ideas you were describing are axiomatic in incel ideology. If you dug through some Andrew Tate videos, you wouldn't have any trouble finding him make the same case as you've made. The crossroads here is, once one observes these critiques of masculinity - do you accept them fatalistically, attributing them to some indelible aspect of biology (this is the Peterson route), or do you seek to change it? Do you place the blame on women (the incel route), or do you observe that there is a power structure (the patriarchy) that is simultaneously oppressing and privileging both men and women in different ways, so that they both enforce the rules of the patriarchy on one another?

There is a problem here, absolutely, we're on the same page there. But it doesn't stem from biology, it is a set of social constructs and expectations; artifices created by humans and which can be abolished by humans, no more immutable than the concept of the divine right of kings.

[jelliclesfarm]

I agree with the person who said that men should be in touch with their emotions for their own well being.

The relationship that one has with oneself shouldn’t be dependent on others ‘ignoring/dismissing/ridiculing’ them. Then it is a relationship they have with the outside world.

[deadc0de]

"Men are judged by utility."

I didn't realize this until recently. Rude awakening. Even the most close relationships turn out to be quite transactional.

[fleddr]

"Only women, children and dogs are loved unconditionally" - Chris Rock.

It's not as transactional as to be loveless. It's conditional love.

[throwaway11823]

I'd like to push back on this. I feel my friends & SO love me essentially unconditionally, but are simply ill-equipped to express that in a supportive way.

[fleddr]

I think that this is technically true in most cases, but love isn't technical.

[jelliclesfarm]

Is Chris Rock a comedian?

[jelliclesfarm]

Between the two genders, men also disproportionately take the lion’s share of the spoils of war/relationship/employment/power/clout.

So here when men are judged by utility, it is essentially competition between the males of the species themselves.

It isn’t dissimilar to ape societies or lions. The alpha wars are happening due to testosterone. There is most certainly an evolutionary and biological reasoning for this.

This has nothing to do with women. Please leave us out of this.

[BirAdam]

This is most likely why the vast majority of suicides are men.

[rexpop]

But, in fact, the opposite is true: 3 out of 4 suicide attempts are by women.

[harryha11er]

OP talked about suicides, you talk about suicide attempts. Both of you are right, while women attempt suicide more often, men succeed at suicide more often and hence die by suicide more often (see Gender paradox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide)

[BirAdam]

According to CDC, men kill themselves far more often.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/pdfs/mm6909a7-H.pdf

[rexpop]

And yet, women make 3x as many attempts, which is more relevant in a discussion on mental anguish and not, for example, gun ownership and aptitude.

[potsandpans]

you lost me at the cabal of radical feminists

[kipple]

> I sent my SO a long string of text messages about a problem that I was having, including one of them that said "I feel like garbage."

Is it possible you buried the lede? I'm a fellow sender of long strings of text messages. I've found that not everyone appreciates my potentially sprawling/parallel communication style. They don't always have the time or capacity to pick through all my words and respond thoughtfully to each point.

I used to take it personally, until I realized I was just being overwhelming. Now, if one thing in particular matters to me, I focus on communicating that one thing. I leave the rest on the back burner for more casual conversation.

[throwaway11823]

I think that's more or less what happened, I don't blame them. Just demonstrating that understanding yourself and expressing yourself clearly are necessary but not sufficient to be understood and to feel seen.

[121789]

Well the truth is that you didn’t express yourself effectively. My SO has done something similar, and being on the other side of an emotional text barrage feels like someone is thoughtlessly unloading their issues onto you. Get a therapist and some friends for casual “therapeutic” complaining and save any real issues you have to more appropriate mediums like a call or face to face.

[throwaway11823]

I wouldn't presume to understand your relationship with your SO from a vague story, and I wouldn't presume to make proscriptions to you either. I'd ask for the same grace and courtesy from you.

The point was that, though the article suggests loneliness stems from being unable to describe your feelings simply and concisely, it is more complex than that.

[jelliclesfarm]

I am trying to imagine what I would say to someone who drops ‘I feel like garbage’ within a long rambling communication with many thoughts expressed.

Now..if it was a singular sentence or text that says ‘I feel like garbage’, then I know the purpose of the communication and enquire what’s going on.

If ‘I feel like garbage’ is preceded by the reasons that explain the conclusion of ‘feeling like garbage’, then it is a conclusion of everything before it.

If it’s in the middle of the communication, then what comes after could be the explanation for ‘feeling like garbage’.

So ..at no point is it the focal subject of the communication.

One effective way is including: What, Who, Why and if they’re an ask, make it clear. Most people can’t read minds.

I am trying to be mindful about my communication and I keep changing how I communicate based on feedback. How my family reacts is diff from how it is at work.. so we need to have different groups..like concentric circles: closest circle, family..friends, colleagues..neighbors etc. it’s always equal give and take. Don’t expect more than you can give. Sometimes, certain relationships aren’t worth it and it’s better to walk away or have no expectations.

[throwaway11823]

I know I said my other comment was my last word, but I've found a more productive way to express this.

This group of commenters in this subthread are laboring under the misunderstanding that I don't understand this criticism; I accepted it in my top reply in this subthread. The statement I think you're interpreting as a rejection of this criticism (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34436762) is an expression of a boundary; I'm saying, you don't have enough context to understand this, you're overextrapolating from a single data point, and I'm not going to enlighten you with additional context - I'm deliberately limiting the amount I share in this thread.

Additionally, this isn't actually what I was arguing; if we accept the axioms presented in the article, a poor presentation of thought doesn't indicate a lack of understanding, a poor expression does. That it is possible to be lonely as a result of a poor presentation is contradictory to the article's conclusion; make of that what you will.

When you continue that line of criticism - without asking questions, without understanding the boundary I expressed, and generally without showing me that you've listened to my previous statements & just repeating the criticism - I take that as transgressing my boundaries, and I draw the inference you are more interested in nitpicking my statements and expressing your criticism than respecting my boundaries.

I'd ask that, if you want to express such direct and personal criticism, you read much, much closer, especially with an eye to when I tell you that I'm not comfortable engaging with that criticism. If you didn't understand that saying, "I would not treat you this way, please do not treat me this way" was an expression of a boundary - now you know to be on the lookout for this common script for expressing boundaries. If you understood that it was a boundary and interpreted that as a challenge, or you don't feel it's legitimate for me to express a boundary in an online space - that is something to think about.

[kipple]

> The point was that, though the article suggests loneliness stems from being unable to describe your feelings simply and concisely, it is more complex than that.

I think the point we're all trying to make is that a text barrage is _not_ expressing yourself simply and concisely.

[throwaway11823]

"I feel like garbage" is simple and concise. This is pedantic nitpicking, so that's my final word on the subject.

[mise_en_place]

I was going to chime in with the same advice. It’s difficult to respond to walls of text. My cousin is notorious for sending these kinds of walls of text and it is impossible to parse correctly and quickly. Text isn’t a great medium for that, in person or a call would be better suited for it.

[RHSman2]

I am sure any long term relationship (long) requires the ability to make space for counseling each other.

[RHSman2]

That is great human progress! Knowing that the way you ‘behave’ might not be the best way and not taking it personally! Meta cognition and enlightenment!

[kipple]

Thank you, the power of introspection and therapy!

[throwaway223145]

You mentioned that you're not sure about how to improve the one-sided empathy situation with your SO. So I thought it might be helpful to share some pertinent info that I've come across on HN in the past. I feel that the article and comment discussion on the "Intentionally making close friends" post (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33774353) may offer some actionable advice. Also, see the authors other post specifically on "debugging others" (https://www.neelnanda.io/blog/30-debugging-others).

My own advice is to be direct with your SO about your needs / expectations not being met. I went through the same thing with my SO. We went to couples therapy for many years with no improvement, until eventually they realized it was serious enough of a problem to lead to the end of the relationship, prompting them to put in the necessary effort to change. Another poster mentioned Gottman "bids for attention" which is spot on as well. Both partners in the relationship need to show up for each other to provide emotional support. Some people are simply more used to receiving support and don't know how / aren't used to providing it. It should be made clear that this is unacceptable and needs to change, but also that you are willing to give it time and work with your SO to help them gradually improve their empathetic capacity so that they can be a better partner to you (and better person in general) and keep your relationship healthy.

I think it's also important to note that balance is key. You need to be mindful not to overload the other person's empathetic capacity by venting so much that they never have a chance to vent to you or to relax / recharge. If your SO is dealing with a lot of emotional distress themselves, they simply won't have bandwidth for you. We can never be perfect emotional support for each other, because each person deals with their own emotional distress / stressful events which temporarily limits their available empathetic capacity.

[someone11823]

> It should be made clear that this is unacceptable and needs to change, but also that you are willing to give it time and work with your SO to help them gradually improve their empathetic capacity so that they can be a better partner to you (and better person in general) and keep your relationship healthy.

When I wrote my sibling comment it didn't come to mind, but this is exactly part of what I'm feeling as well - a strong lack of empathy on the part of my partner. It could be due to an underdeveloped insula or orbitofrontal cortexes from some of the reading I've done. This falls in line with my understanding of them having an avoidant attachment style, too, which generally I've heard is also due to being underdeveloped, compared to avoidant and securely attached individuals.

I also likely exhibit "too much" empathy myself, which is a heck of a pairing. It's not easy for me to feel like I need to "tune down" how receptive I am to my partners every little issue or negative expression and try to be there for them - but it is just so unequal otherwise, sometimes to both of our detriment. I am guessing also I need to give them space to feel negative feelings before jumping in so quickly.

I have been direct with my partner in the past about my needs not being met, as you suggest, but I think the conversation needs to happen again (and again?) as reminders and check-ins maybe? It doesn't feel good to have to do this though, especially during moments of distress when I really need them.

> We went to couples therapy for many years with no improvement, until eventually they realized it was serious enough of a problem to lead to the end of the relationship, prompting them to put in the necessary effort to change

In your case, was it truly just a matter of willpower on the part of your partner? How have things been since?

Since you seem more well read on the subject than myself: are there exercises or skills to help build someones empathetic capacity? Anything I can do (perhaps without involving/telling my partner directly) to help them? Behaviors of my own that I can change to get us going in the right direction?

Can I get this change from my partner without threatening the relationship itself as you had to do? I feel like that would undermine all the effort and reassurance I've put in, that they so badly need to help develop and feel safe.

[prirun]

> are there exercises or skills to help build someones empathetic capacity? Anything I can do (perhaps without involving/telling my partner directly) to help them? Behaviors of my own that I can change to get us going in the right direction?

I'm no therapist, but IMO, it is not healthy to try to help your partner change "without involving/telling them directly". It sounds like you are afraid to discuss this with them because of their reaction, and maybe they will tell you they don't want to change or feel the need for change, which would be another slap in your face.

Talk with a therapist; maybe your relationship is not all that great when it comes down to it, and you need to face that and perhaps consider leaving, or at least learn to accept that your partner is incapable of giving you certain things that you would like to have, but can't get from them. Not all things are fixable, and love doesn't conquer all, at least in my experience.

Another thing to consider: your relationship seems to be in trouble and you are unhappy with it. This could be magnifying other difficulties in your life, like at work, that would not be such a big deal if you didn't have these ongoing relationship concerns.

[someone11823]

That's fair. They have to be a willing participant. It is just so infinitely hard to tell someone, especially someone you love and support, and who's support you so greatly want (and need), "you lack empathy", especially after telling them already several times you don't feel cared for. Maybe phrasing is part of the issue, and starting with "you lack empathy" isn't quite the right way to attack this issue and is an unnecessary attack on my partner. But, where to begin with them then?

I'll admit I wrote that comment frustrated and after not sleeping great after reading this thread.

[throwaway223145]

I certainly know what it's like to be in your shoes, losing sleep, feeling depressed, searching for answers. I can and do truly empathize with your relationship struggles. And honestly, I still struggle with this (though to a lesser extent than in the past), and certainly all my relationship problems are not solved. However, my relationship did truly experience a significant improvement. So perhaps my experience / research is of some value to you and others that are in a similar situation. I'll go ahead and share a few more pertinent thoughts / resources below, but it won't be comprehensive. If you'd like to discuss this more comprehensively (I don't want to share too many personal details here) I'd be happy to chat with you via email or phone. You can email my throwaway account to get my contact info. My throwaway email account: [e-mail]

I think you touched on the root of the one-sided empathy situation with your SO and most likely also your broader relationship issues: incompatible attachment styles. After much research / reading and therapy, I eventually identified this as the root of my own relationship issues as well. Essentially it boils down to this: a person with an insecure attachment style is poorly matched for a person with an avoidant attachment style. I highly recommend reading the following book on this matter: "Attached Are you Anxious, Avoidant or Secure How the science of adult attachment can help you find – and keep – love by Amir Levine and Rachel Heller". I also recommend reading Gottman's book "The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work" (Gottman doesn't really utilize the attachment styles model but his model is effective for relationship issues nonetheless).

Regarding how to talk to your partner about this, the optimal approach is in fact certainly much more nuanced than "be direct". You need to take care not to make your partner feel criticized, as this will trigger defensiveness, causing them to become more resistant to making changes. Generally, using "I feel" statements is a good approach but it can be tricky to implement well in practice. Also, you certainly don't want to make your partner feel the relationship is threatened / communicate a threat, unless you sincerely feel you're tired of trying / progress isn't being made / you've exhausted all other approaches. With I statements, it's possible to communicate that an issue is very important to you and your happiness in the relationship without making your partner feel excessively worried that the relationship is threatened. In particular by making it clear that you're not looking for immediate changes / perfection - that you're willing to work through it with them. And there's certainly much more to communication - it's a deep topic.

I think it's also important to note that attachment style / relational incompatibility is a matter of degree. As you'll learn from the book I recommended, attachment style is quantified on a four quadrant spectrum. If you're only a little insecure and your partner only a little avoidant, then your incompatibility is probably more workable. So I would certainly recommend using the attachment style assessment tool to gauge the degree of your and your partner's attachment style incompatibility. So while it will certainly always be difficult being in a mismatched attachment style relationship, it is possible for both partners to meet closer to somewhere in the middle and have a mostly functional relationship, through a mutual deep understanding of the mismatch and a sincere willingness to modulate your respective behaviors and expectations. However, if eventually you observe that your partner fundamentally lacks a willingness to make any significant changes to their own understanding and behavior, then I agree with the other poster in this thread that leaving the relationship should be seriously considered. But from what you've shared so far it sounds to me like you've not yet reached that point / haven't exhausted all your options. That said, the decision of whether to keep trying to make the relationship work or to give up on it, also depends on how much you've invested in it already. A long marriage with a kid (my situation), warrants trying harder to find solutions, putting up with unmet needs longer, and generally being more patient. If you don't have much time invested in your relationship then it may not make sense to keep banging your head against the wall for years (as I did). In which case you may want to set a more reasonable time limit on the order of months (keep this to yourself of course) to see if there's sufficient progress.

I also highly recommend seeing a personal therapist as they can provide an alternate source of empathy to you for your struggles so that you're not totally reliant on your avoidant attachment style partner - this was invaluable for me personally. Couples therapy was also helpful as forum for discussing relationship issues with my partner. It helped lend more weight to what I had to say, so that they took my stated issues and my analysis of the cause and solutions for the relationship problems more seriously.

Hopefully this is helpful to you and anyone else in a similar situation that comes across this post. It's really difficult to understand the cause of one's relationship problems and to find solutions because there's just so much information out there that it's hard to separate the wheat from the chaff. Not to mention that you're doing all this research under the constant drag of feeling emotionally distressed / depressed. And although therapists are very helpful, in my experience, without extensively researching / reading on your own, you're unlikely to cultivate a deep enough understanding to work through to a positive outcome for a fundamental relationship problem such as an attachment style mismatch. It's a real struggle and I really wish there were better resources to help people that are dealing with relationship issues and mental health issues in general. In any event, best of luck to you, and as I said feel free to reach out if you want to discuss this further.

[someone11823]

I have gone through literally this exact same scenario. I'll send my partner texts during the day and they'll ignore them even through their lunch/breaks, or skim them and miss something important. I get to the point sometimes where I have to stop texting them, even about unrelated topics or important updates, because I know the number of texts will build up too much and when they see it they won't read any of them. As is common, my partner is dependent on me. I am her rock and the breadwinner for our family. She doesn't provide enough emotional support, I have to constantly hold back my emotional needs. Maybe she is emotionally underdeveloped. Like hell, I have to remind her to say caring things to me, and even then sometimes they don't know what to say even with a prompt. I'm curious how many of these other things you relate to or you have in common with me.

I'm also curious, does your partner have ADHD?

[klohto]

Chiming in, same experience. Partner has ADHD, but I feel like it’s so common nowadays it can be cause of everything.

You have rock solid support system elsewhere I see. I’m curious how do you feel about them ignoring the texts? Would you feel different, perhaps even insecure if the your partner wasn’t dependent on you?

[jimkleiber]

> it seemed like they just sort of skimmed them and they didn't notice that one in particular. I didn't mention it; I just let it go.

I sometimes wonder if I feel more lonely when I "let it go" aka suppress how I'm feeling. I imagine if it were me, I may have felt annoyed or sad or confused that they didn't see the "I feel like garbage" part and didn't reply to it, and when I"m feeling courageous, sometimes I'll say that to them. I think I've noticed that when people have that deer in the headlights look, I can slowly start to suppress more and more things about how I'm feeling and then sometimes feel stuck, wanting to go deeper and also trying to respect that they may already feel overwhelmed.

I don't know if there's an answer in any of what I wrote above, just wanted to share how I can struggle with this as well.

[HardlyCurious]

It's a shitty situation, and it seems all too common for men.

The usual knee jerk response is to blame the men for being unable to communicate effectively.

I think the sad truth is that not everyone is cared about equally, and sometimes it is everyone else's fault.

But it isn't like you can get mad about it. That is just going to push people away and make them bitter toward you.

[cat_plus_plus]

It's very hard to deal with unactionable bad news. You need to be in a good place yourself, because this will bring you down with no obvious means of relief. Then you need to be free from all distractions and commitments to figure out how to respond, either by doing something or even just the kind of active listening that requires concentration and emotional commitment.

If you ask for something specific and especially something your partner will not totally hate doing, you will make it easier for them to be there for you. "Can you make me my favorite comfort food for dinner tonight?"

[vorpalhex]

One way we can help people help us is to give them an ask - "I feel like garbage. Can you deal with dinner?" or "I feel like garbage. Do you have time to chat with me?"

People need scripts and many people struggle to provide active support to someone they view as supportive. Giving them a script can help.

[Fauntleroy]

You might need to surround yourself with more compassionate people, if you truly feel that no one is willing to consider your emotional wants and needs.

[throwaway11823]

They are lovely and compassionate people, they're simply unable to extend that to me, partly because they're blinded by societal expectations of men (they often don't really see me as an emotional creature), partly because they lean on me for support, and so the idea that I might not be an unshakable pillar is terrifying for them. When I go to them for support, it's not that they don't want to provide it, it's that they fail to.

I'm sure that somewhere out there is a person (or hundreds or thousands of people) who would be a perfect friend to me, but I doubt I'll ever meet them. It's pretty difficult to make friends as an adult, and every friendship I have made as an adult has been fleeting and fairly shallow.

It's bearable. Therapists exist for a reason.

[1659447091]

Sounds like a similar situation I had where the relationship dynamic that was created at the start was the main cause for the issues later.

I recently went through a purging of many of these one sided relationships. People I thought were friends, the kind who I would show up for and never ask for anything, but when it came time for me to need someone to lean on it was crickets. They are not bad people, I wouldnt have wasted time on them if they were, but now we are no longer compatible since my standards changed. (for both my approach and theirs)

It took some time to realize how un-healthly keeping that dynamic around had been, and that I am better off mostly alone doing my life while meeting new people (though it is difficult to make new friends).

There was one, even with their own limitations at the time, that tried to be supportive without making jokes or other weird behaviour I got from others. The surprising part was I had known them for a long time but they are at a distance and the relationship was mostly just sending jokes and random comments to each other from time to time. They are still in my life and the relationship changed to the supportive kind (still w/jokes) that I thought I had built w/others. My take is that the relationship wasn't built on a dynamic where they came to see me as an unshakable pillar so it wasn't confusing or awkward for them.

[Remnant44]

I feel this one deeply. I was in a similar situation in a past relationship; The traditional male role of "unshakeable pillar" meant that support was a one directional flow only, and any mention of feeling down or bad would cause a huge fight or fear response.

Unfortunately I don't have any great advice to solve this, except that therapy can be really helpful here, if just to provide a compassionate person to talk to.

[whstl]

I can relate. I actually had a friend tell me "if you ever think of killing yourself, get in touch with me" after an acquaintance committed suicide. Well, I did have a depressive episode and got in touch for help, but got radio silence. Soon after the friendship was dead, he lost interest and couldn't hang out. Now I rely on therapy only.

[bittercynic]

I don't want to excuse your ex-friend's behavior, but I'm afraid a lot of people have no idea how to be of use to a friend who's going through such an episode.

Suggestions to those who don't know what to do:

Can I take you out to lunch? I found a new spot I think you might like.

Want to go to <nearby park> and take a walk?

Want to play catch?

Want to come over for dinner?

I was hung up for a long time because I don't know how to solve any serious personal problems, so I thought I couldn't be of any use. But just being there for someone, inviting them to something nice, and being a good listener can help. And it might be enjoyable for you, too.

[whstl]

Those are great suggestions, and they would have worked wonders for me. Thanks for doing the work of helping others.

In my case I wasn't even that in need of an ear, as I had a therapist on speed dial. I just wanted to see someone, for life to go on. The sudden distance, silence and unmade plans made me feel like a leper.

[Viliam1234]

> They are lovely and compassionate people, they're simply unable to extend that to me

Imagine that I told you about a group of people who, for example, "are lovely and compassionate, they are simply unable to extend that to black people". Would you agree with those adjectives?

> It's bearable. Therapists exist for a reason.

Maybe the things that are "bearable, but require a therapy afterwards" should be improved.

[HardlyCurious]

It isn't a choice for most men to just surround themselves with compassionate people.

It's hard to find them for one, and often you won't really know until you have gotten to know them a bit. And this assumes they are even interested in exploring a friendship with you.

[_rs]

I wonder if this is related to "bids for attention" in a way (see https://www.gottman.com/blog/turn-toward-instead-of-away/) - you reaching out to your partner hoping for acknowledgement and not getting any response

[darepublic]

I feel you. I am separated right now and sometimes I want desperately to be back in a relationship -- forgetting that even within a relationship it's no guarantee to not be lonely. Hope everything is okay with you. I just try to be stoical about everything and be not fight the negative emotions but learn to live with them. It helps.

[RHSman2]

How are they doing? Perhaps they have stuff going on that you don’t see?

A SO is just like you and the hard part is being able to share and open up. Because sometimes it isn’t right in a relationship and you can feel even lonelier.

[isthisthingon99]

I can relate (as a man) and can say it was only when I started hanging around other dudes who would relentlessly mock each other that my feelings improved.