[dragontamer]

> asperger's syndrome

Elon Musk just _pretends_ to have Asperger's. I know plenty of people on the spectrum, they aren't assholes.

There's also the "Ye's bipolar disorder" effect. Its a challenge I'm sure to have it, but I also know people who are bipolar. Anti-semitism is _NOT_ on the list of symptoms. We can criticize Ye's anti-semetism without making fun of his bipolar / mental illness.

So even _IF_ Elon hada Asperger's (and I'm not convinced he does. I think its all pretend for more clicks / his public relations image), there's nothing about Asperger's that makes you a self-contradicting asshole.

[heather45879]

I agree and not trying to typecast—but maybe their personality + Asperger’s = dubious people-oriented decisions? I’m not a doctor nor do I know anyone with Asperger’s but it is a variable at play.

But quickly looking it up it’s a social-oriented disorder. Elon is making dubious social-oriented decisions.

[dragontamer]

The entire field of psychology is about dubious social-oriented decisions and classifying them (hoping that by classifying them, we can gain insights into how to improve behavior).

The kinds of dubious social-oriented decisions associated with Asperger's does _NOT_ match what Elon Musk is doing. What he is doing is closer to narcissistic personality disorder and/or sociopathic personality disorder.

[TheCapeGreek]

Being a dick doesn't disqualify you from being on the spectrum.

Anecdotally, from the Aspergous people I know, they and Elon share a certain kind of body language you pick up on over time. It's a slight fidgeting as if clothes are constantly uncomfortable (likely due to constant stimulation).

[skissane]

> but I also know people who are bipolar. Anti-semitism is _NOT_ on the list of symptoms.

Obsessing over some socially unacceptable idea absolutely can be a manifestation of bipolar disorder for some people. Especially when one considers that bipolar can sometimes be associated with psychosis, and obsessive antisemitic/racist/etc thoughts are not uncommon in people with psychosis (famous example: Terry Davis, who I think actually even had a bipolar diagnosis at one point - it is common for people to initially be diagnosed with bipolar before eventually getting a schizophrenia or schizoaffective diagnosis as the psychotic symptoms become more prominent and enduring).

Kanye’s antisemitism is wrong and reprehensible. I can’t tell to what extent it is a symptom of his mental health problems, and I don’t think you really can either: neither of us is a mental health professional, and he is not our patient/client. But simply looking at a list of symptoms, and saying “X is not on it”, is a very ignorant way to approach the topic. Even if his antisemitism is partially due to his bipolar, that doesn’t mean he should just be allowed to get away with it, just like how a bipolar person who commits a crime in a manic state (sometimes happens) doesn’t just get away with it, although it may be appropriate to take that into account as a mitigating factor (as opposed to a “get out of jail free” card)

Similarly, I have no idea whether Musk has ASD. But ASD absolutely can make some people behave in a way which others perceive as being an “asshole”, so if he does have it, those behaviours could well in part be contributed to by it. That’s not saying that everyone with ASD is an “asshole”, or that a person with ASD has no responsibility to try their best to adjust to meet society’s expectations - but isn’t it obvious that a disorder whose symptoms can include difficulty thinking about social situations or understanding social rules, obliviousness to the thoughts and feelings of others, unusual obsessions, etc, can sometimes lead people to behave in ways perceived by others as being an “asshole”, even a failure to adjust one’s behaviour in response to that feedback?

[ditonal]

Thanks for your help correcting a really common misconception about bipolar disorder.

People want to whitewash mental illness because mental illness can be scary and uncomfortable. There’s this concept of destigmatizing mental illness by pretending all sorts of bad behavior are somehow not associated with mental illness. This is often done to make people with minor mental illness feel less stigmatized but ironically can increase the stigma around people with more severe mental illness since now it’s not mental illness, they’re just a terrible terrible person.

Yes, psychosis absolutely can cause people to be antisemitic, racist, violent, etc. This should almost be obvious. But because it opens up difficult conversations about accountability, and because people with minor mental illness want sympathy without stigma, people like to pretend otherwise.

[dragontamer]

> But ASD absolutely can make some people behave in a way which others perceive as being an “asshole”, so if he does have it, those behaviours could well in part be contributed to by it.

Autistic people do things because they don't understand social norms.

Sociopaths do things because they don't _care_ about social norms.

There's a difference, and I can tell the difference. It is in a sociopath's best interest to pretend that they're autistic by the way.

[skissane]

ASD absolutely can make people care less about social norms, see for example https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3198313/ (“Insensitivity to social reputation in autism”)

ASD can be a mixture of both not understanding and not caring. Sociopathy is all about the later without any of the former.

[dragontamer]

Elon Musk is the CEO of a major corporation.

Sociopathy, is often pointed out as an advantage in that situation. You rise above others in the social ladder and punch down your competitors. And we're seeing this behavior right now as Elon Musk is utilizing his powers to try to silence his critics (Mastodon).

Autism on the other hand, is a disadvantage in most leadership roles.

When we consider Elon Musk's role in society (leading corporations), he is far more likely to be a sociopath, rather than autistic. When we look at his behavior (punching down on Mastodon), its closer to sociopathy.

When we consider Musk's behavior in the past few weeks, it has more similarities to Narcissistic collapse than anything else I've heard of.

[skissane]

Armchair diagnosis is a rather foolish endeavour.

That said, a person as successful as Musk is, is more likely to have BAP (broad autism phenotype, subclinical ASD) than clinical ASD. BAP means one has some degree of autistic traits, but is insufficiently disabled by them to warrant a psychiatric diagnosis

Sociopathy isn’t a DSM-5 diagnosis - antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) is. Diagnostic criteria for ASPD include a history of criminally antisocial behaviour (animal abuse, vandalism, violence, theft, etc), evident by age of 15. It also requires evidence to support a retrospective conduct disorder diagnosis prior to 15. I see zero evidence that is true of Musk. When psychiatrists evaluate someone for ASPD, they aren’t looking for mere allegations of questionable business ethics, they expect to see a criminal record, history of school expulsion, imprisonment or juvenile detention, someone repeatedly being fired for proven serious workplace misconduct, someone who refuses to seek gainful employment despite being capable of it, dishonourable discharge from armed services, domestic violence, physical and emotional abuse of children, serious child neglect resulting in malnutrition, use of aliases or false identities to commit fraud, etc

[dragontamer]

> Armchair diagnosis is a rather foolish endeavour.

Indeed. So we can stop with the Asperger's claim? But if the can of worms is open, I'm more than willing to contribute my 2-cents instead.

> I see zero evidence that is true of Musk.

https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/antisocial-perso...

* exploit, manipulate or violate the rights of others

https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/tesla-faces-california-l...

* lack concern, regret or remorse about other people's distress

https://www.tmz.com/2022/06/20/elon-musk-daughter-name-chang...

* behave irresponsibly and show disregard for normal social behaviour

* have difficulty sustaining long-term relationships

Check. Pretty much every girlfriend Musk has had has dumped him at this point.

* be unable to control their anger

https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-reportedly-head-bu...

* lack guilt, or not learn from their mistakes

Twitter

* blame others for problems in their lives

Do I even need to point this one out?

* repeatedly break the law

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/securities-law/elon-musk-loses...

Do you think Elon Musk is complying with his legal obligations for a Twitter sitter right now?