[skissane]

> but I also know people who are bipolar. Anti-semitism is _NOT_ on the list of symptoms.

Obsessing over some socially unacceptable idea absolutely can be a manifestation of bipolar disorder for some people. Especially when one considers that bipolar can sometimes be associated with psychosis, and obsessive antisemitic/racist/etc thoughts are not uncommon in people with psychosis (famous example: Terry Davis, who I think actually even had a bipolar diagnosis at one point - it is common for people to initially be diagnosed with bipolar before eventually getting a schizophrenia or schizoaffective diagnosis as the psychotic symptoms become more prominent and enduring).

Kanye’s antisemitism is wrong and reprehensible. I can’t tell to what extent it is a symptom of his mental health problems, and I don’t think you really can either: neither of us is a mental health professional, and he is not our patient/client. But simply looking at a list of symptoms, and saying “X is not on it”, is a very ignorant way to approach the topic. Even if his antisemitism is partially due to his bipolar, that doesn’t mean he should just be allowed to get away with it, just like how a bipolar person who commits a crime in a manic state (sometimes happens) doesn’t just get away with it, although it may be appropriate to take that into account as a mitigating factor (as opposed to a “get out of jail free” card)

Similarly, I have no idea whether Musk has ASD. But ASD absolutely can make some people behave in a way which others perceive as being an “asshole”, so if he does have it, those behaviours could well in part be contributed to by it. That’s not saying that everyone with ASD is an “asshole”, or that a person with ASD has no responsibility to try their best to adjust to meet society’s expectations - but isn’t it obvious that a disorder whose symptoms can include difficulty thinking about social situations or understanding social rules, obliviousness to the thoughts and feelings of others, unusual obsessions, etc, can sometimes lead people to behave in ways perceived by others as being an “asshole”, even a failure to adjust one’s behaviour in response to that feedback?

[ditonal]

Thanks for your help correcting a really common misconception about bipolar disorder.

People want to whitewash mental illness because mental illness can be scary and uncomfortable. There’s this concept of destigmatizing mental illness by pretending all sorts of bad behavior are somehow not associated with mental illness. This is often done to make people with minor mental illness feel less stigmatized but ironically can increase the stigma around people with more severe mental illness since now it’s not mental illness, they’re just a terrible terrible person.

Yes, psychosis absolutely can cause people to be antisemitic, racist, violent, etc. This should almost be obvious. But because it opens up difficult conversations about accountability, and because people with minor mental illness want sympathy without stigma, people like to pretend otherwise.

[dragontamer]

> But ASD absolutely can make some people behave in a way which others perceive as being an “asshole”, so if he does have it, those behaviours could well in part be contributed to by it.

Autistic people do things because they don't understand social norms.

Sociopaths do things because they don't _care_ about social norms.

There's a difference, and I can tell the difference. It is in a sociopath's best interest to pretend that they're autistic by the way.

[skissane]

ASD absolutely can make people care less about social norms, see for example https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3198313/ (“Insensitivity to social reputation in autism”)

ASD can be a mixture of both not understanding and not caring. Sociopathy is all about the later without any of the former.

[dragontamer]

Elon Musk is the CEO of a major corporation.

Sociopathy, is often pointed out as an advantage in that situation. You rise above others in the social ladder and punch down your competitors. And we're seeing this behavior right now as Elon Musk is utilizing his powers to try to silence his critics (Mastodon).

Autism on the other hand, is a disadvantage in most leadership roles.

When we consider Elon Musk's role in society (leading corporations), he is far more likely to be a sociopath, rather than autistic. When we look at his behavior (punching down on Mastodon), its closer to sociopathy.

When we consider Musk's behavior in the past few weeks, it has more similarities to Narcissistic collapse than anything else I've heard of.

[skissane]

Armchair diagnosis is a rather foolish endeavour.

That said, a person as successful as Musk is, is more likely to have BAP (broad autism phenotype, subclinical ASD) than clinical ASD. BAP means one has some degree of autistic traits, but is insufficiently disabled by them to warrant a psychiatric diagnosis

Sociopathy isn’t a DSM-5 diagnosis - antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) is. Diagnostic criteria for ASPD include a history of criminally antisocial behaviour (animal abuse, vandalism, violence, theft, etc), evident by age of 15. It also requires evidence to support a retrospective conduct disorder diagnosis prior to 15. I see zero evidence that is true of Musk. When psychiatrists evaluate someone for ASPD, they aren’t looking for mere allegations of questionable business ethics, they expect to see a criminal record, history of school expulsion, imprisonment or juvenile detention, someone repeatedly being fired for proven serious workplace misconduct, someone who refuses to seek gainful employment despite being capable of it, dishonourable discharge from armed services, domestic violence, physical and emotional abuse of children, serious child neglect resulting in malnutrition, use of aliases or false identities to commit fraud, etc

[dragontamer]

> Armchair diagnosis is a rather foolish endeavour.

Indeed. So we can stop with the Asperger's claim? But if the can of worms is open, I'm more than willing to contribute my 2-cents instead.

> I see zero evidence that is true of Musk.

https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/antisocial-perso...

* exploit, manipulate or violate the rights of others

https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/tesla-faces-california-l...

* lack concern, regret or remorse about other people's distress

https://www.tmz.com/2022/06/20/elon-musk-daughter-name-chang...

* behave irresponsibly and show disregard for normal social behaviour

* have difficulty sustaining long-term relationships

Check. Pretty much every girlfriend Musk has had has dumped him at this point.

* be unable to control their anger

https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-reportedly-head-bu...

* lack guilt, or not learn from their mistakes

Twitter

* blame others for problems in their lives

Do I even need to point this one out?

* repeatedly break the law

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/securities-law/elon-musk-loses...

Do you think Elon Musk is complying with his legal obligations for a Twitter sitter right now?

[skissane]

If I open up my copy of the DSM-5, I find on page 659 the diagnostic criteria for Antisocial Personality Disorder (301.7, F60.2):

> A. A pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others, occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following: ...

> B. The individual is at least age 18 years.

> C. There is evidence of conduct disorder with onset before age 15 years.

> D. The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of schizophrenia or bipolar disorder.

Now, to be diagnosed with ASPD, a person must meet all of A, B, C and D. You seem to be focusing on criterion A. Even supposing you are right that he meets criterion A – where is the evidence for him meeting criterion C? You can't diagnose someone with ASPD without evidence for the onset of a diagnosis of conduct disorder (CD) as a child/adolescent. It isn't necessary that they be diagnosed with CD contemporaneously, it is acceptable to have retrospective evidence for it based on school records, parent interviews, their own recollections, etc – but, without evidence for onset of a CD diagnosis in childhood/adolescence, you cannot have an ASPD diagnosis in adulthood. Do we have any evidence that Musk met the diagnostic criteria for conduct disorder in childhood/adolescence?

Is there any good evidence that Musk exhibited at least three of the following behaviours (conduct disorder criterion A, pages 469-470) prior to age 15?

    Aggression to People and Animals
    1. Often bullies, threatens, or intimidates others.
    2. Often initiates physical fights.
    3. Has used a weapon that can cause serious physical harm to others (e.g., a bat, brick, broken bottle, knife, gun).
    4. Has been physically cruel to people.
    5. Has been physically cruel to animals.
    6. Has stolen while confronting a victim (e.g., mugging, purse snatching, extortion, armed robbery).
    7. Has forced someone into sexual activity.
    Destruction of Property
    8. Has deliberately engaged in fire setting with the intention of causing serious damage.
    9. Has deliberately destroyed others’ property (other than by fire setting).
    Deceitfulness or Theft
    10. Has broken into someone else’s house, building, or car.
    11. Often lies to obtain goods or favors or to avoid obligations (i.e., “cons” others).
    12. Has stolen items of nontrivial value without confronting a victim (e.g., shoplifting, but without breaking and entering: forgery).
    Serious Violations of Rules
    13. Often stays out at night despite parental prohibitions, beginning before age 13 years.
    14. Has run away from home overnight at least twice while living in the parental or parental surrogate home, or once without returning for a lengthy period.
    15. Is often truant from school, beginning before age 13 years