[skissane]

ASD absolutely can make people care less about social norms, see for example https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3198313/ (“Insensitivity to social reputation in autism”)

ASD can be a mixture of both not understanding and not caring. Sociopathy is all about the later without any of the former.

[dragontamer]

Elon Musk is the CEO of a major corporation.

Sociopathy, is often pointed out as an advantage in that situation. You rise above others in the social ladder and punch down your competitors. And we're seeing this behavior right now as Elon Musk is utilizing his powers to try to silence his critics (Mastodon).

Autism on the other hand, is a disadvantage in most leadership roles.

When we consider Elon Musk's role in society (leading corporations), he is far more likely to be a sociopath, rather than autistic. When we look at his behavior (punching down on Mastodon), its closer to sociopathy.

When we consider Musk's behavior in the past few weeks, it has more similarities to Narcissistic collapse than anything else I've heard of.

[skissane]

Armchair diagnosis is a rather foolish endeavour.

That said, a person as successful as Musk is, is more likely to have BAP (broad autism phenotype, subclinical ASD) than clinical ASD. BAP means one has some degree of autistic traits, but is insufficiently disabled by them to warrant a psychiatric diagnosis

Sociopathy isn’t a DSM-5 diagnosis - antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) is. Diagnostic criteria for ASPD include a history of criminally antisocial behaviour (animal abuse, vandalism, violence, theft, etc), evident by age of 15. It also requires evidence to support a retrospective conduct disorder diagnosis prior to 15. I see zero evidence that is true of Musk. When psychiatrists evaluate someone for ASPD, they aren’t looking for mere allegations of questionable business ethics, they expect to see a criminal record, history of school expulsion, imprisonment or juvenile detention, someone repeatedly being fired for proven serious workplace misconduct, someone who refuses to seek gainful employment despite being capable of it, dishonourable discharge from armed services, domestic violence, physical and emotional abuse of children, serious child neglect resulting in malnutrition, use of aliases or false identities to commit fraud, etc

[dragontamer]

> Armchair diagnosis is a rather foolish endeavour.

Indeed. So we can stop with the Asperger's claim? But if the can of worms is open, I'm more than willing to contribute my 2-cents instead.

> I see zero evidence that is true of Musk.

https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/antisocial-perso...

* exploit, manipulate or violate the rights of others

https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/tesla-faces-california-l...

* lack concern, regret or remorse about other people's distress

https://www.tmz.com/2022/06/20/elon-musk-daughter-name-chang...

* behave irresponsibly and show disregard for normal social behaviour

* have difficulty sustaining long-term relationships

Check. Pretty much every girlfriend Musk has had has dumped him at this point.

* be unable to control their anger

https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-reportedly-head-bu...

* lack guilt, or not learn from their mistakes

Twitter

* blame others for problems in their lives

Do I even need to point this one out?

* repeatedly break the law

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/securities-law/elon-musk-loses...

Do you think Elon Musk is complying with his legal obligations for a Twitter sitter right now?

[skissane]

If I open up my copy of the DSM-5, I find on page 659 the diagnostic criteria for Antisocial Personality Disorder (301.7, F60.2):

> A. A pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others, occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following: ...

> B. The individual is at least age 18 years.

> C. There is evidence of conduct disorder with onset before age 15 years.

> D. The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of schizophrenia or bipolar disorder.

Now, to be diagnosed with ASPD, a person must meet all of A, B, C and D. You seem to be focusing on criterion A. Even supposing you are right that he meets criterion A – where is the evidence for him meeting criterion C? You can't diagnose someone with ASPD without evidence for the onset of a diagnosis of conduct disorder (CD) as a child/adolescent. It isn't necessary that they be diagnosed with CD contemporaneously, it is acceptable to have retrospective evidence for it based on school records, parent interviews, their own recollections, etc – but, without evidence for onset of a CD diagnosis in childhood/adolescence, you cannot have an ASPD diagnosis in adulthood. Do we have any evidence that Musk met the diagnostic criteria for conduct disorder in childhood/adolescence?

Is there any good evidence that Musk exhibited at least three of the following behaviours (conduct disorder criterion A, pages 469-470) prior to age 15?

    Aggression to People and Animals
    1. Often bullies, threatens, or intimidates others.
    2. Often initiates physical fights.
    3. Has used a weapon that can cause serious physical harm to others (e.g., a bat, brick, broken bottle, knife, gun).
    4. Has been physically cruel to people.
    5. Has been physically cruel to animals.
    6. Has stolen while confronting a victim (e.g., mugging, purse snatching, extortion, armed robbery).
    7. Has forced someone into sexual activity.
    Destruction of Property
    8. Has deliberately engaged in fire setting with the intention of causing serious damage.
    9. Has deliberately destroyed others’ property (other than by fire setting).
    Deceitfulness or Theft
    10. Has broken into someone else’s house, building, or car.
    11. Often lies to obtain goods or favors or to avoid obligations (i.e., “cons” others).
    12. Has stolen items of nontrivial value without confronting a victim (e.g., shoplifting, but without breaking and entering: forgery).
    Serious Violations of Rules
    13. Often stays out at night despite parental prohibitions, beginning before age 13 years.
    14. Has run away from home overnight at least twice while living in the parental or parental surrogate home, or once without returning for a lengthy period.
    15. Is often truant from school, beginning before age 13 years

[dragontamer]

Why do you expect me to know a detailed history of Elon Musk from 30+ years ago?

A, B, and D are fully set in my mind. The only question is one of personal history that obviously I don't have.

[skissane]

Musk doesn't fit the usual clinical picture of someone with ASPD. ASPD is usually encountered in a forensic setting – someone in prison, currently going through a criminal trial, child welfare cases.

I really doubt any actual psychiatrist or psychologist would diagnose Musk with ASPD in a clinical setting. Psychiatric diagnoses aren't just about reading a list of symptoms and matching them – you need to understand how professionals interpret that list in practice (the "clinical gestalt", as it is sometimes called). If you actually study the literature on ASPD, you'll find people like Musk are not the targets of the diagnosis. Indeed, the DSM-5 says (p. 662):

> Antisocial personality disorder appears to be associated with low socioeconomic status and urban settings

Musk is not now and has never been a person of "low socioeconomic status", which is the group of people in which ASPD is usually diagnosed.

Here's some more traits of ASPD, according to the DSM-5 (p. 661):

> They may be irresponsible as parents, as evidenced by malnutrition of a child, an illness in the child resulting from a lack of minimal hygiene, a child's dependence on neighbors or nonresident relatives for food or shelter, a failure to arrange for a caretaker for a young child when the individual is away from home, or repeated squandering of money required for household necessities

Musk is no candidate for "Father of the Year", but there is zero evidence his children are malnourished, extremely unhygienic, lack appropriate adult supervision, lack sufficient financial support, etc. That is describing the behaviour of low socioeconomic status bad parents, high socioeconomic status individuals may often be bad parents, but rarely in such a grossly physical way.

> These individuals may receive dishonorable discharges from the armed services, may fail to be self-supporting, may become impoverished or even homeless, or may spend many years in penal institutions

That doesn't sound like Musk either.

Some other common traits of ASPD (back to page 660):

> Irresponsible work behavior may be indicated by significant periods of unemployment despite available job opportunities, or by abandonment of several jobs without a realistic plan for getting another job. There may also be a pattern of repeated absences from work that are not explained by illness either in themselves or in their family. Financial irresponsibility is indicated by acts such as defaulting on debts, failing to provide child support, or failing to support other dependents on a regular basis

When they said "financial irresponsibility", a centibillionaire wasting $44 billion on a whim is not what they had in mind. They mean the parent who can't afford food for their children because they spent all their money on some inessential goods. None of Musk's children are going to starve, even if he stupidly loses $100 billion more.

> Individuals with antisocial personality disorder tend to be irritable and aggressive and may repeatedly get into physical fights or commit acts of physical assault (including spouse beating or child beating)

Haven't heard about Musk getting in to physical fights or committing physical assault.