[gumby]

In every US state there are small claims courts for precisely these issues.

Not that this necessarily helps this particular family which is in Canada. But that’s the way to deal with this kind of thing. The article appears to say that Amazon simply shrugged.

It is touching that the father says that they have been loyal customers. Like most big companies, Amazon doesn’t care about that, with their customers nor employees.

[jonathanstrange]

There is also a little known EU small claims court.[1] It costs 200 Euro and no lawyer to submit a case, and you get the 200 Euro back when the case is successful.

[1] https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/dealing-with-customers...

[Semaphor]

According to their user guide, this is only for cross-border claims. So if my issue was with Amazon Germany, I guess I couldn’t use it?

edit: Correct, but I found that the EU has a nice form to find the correct way to solve disputes, both national and cross-border: https://ec.europa.eu/consumers/odr/main/?event=main.home.sel...

[zinekeller]

> in any EU country except for Denmark

If any EU lawyers know, why is Denmark excluded? Have they opt-out of this?

Edit: even UK has this procedure (before their exit), so probably an explicit opt-out.

[kawsper]

It doesn't really say why, I'd like to know as well.

> In accordance with Articles 1 and 2 of the Protocol on the position of Denmark annexed to the Treaty on European Union and to the Treaty establishing the European Community, Denmark does not take part in the adoption of this Regulation and is not bound by it or subject to its application,

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A...

[richardwhiuk]

Denmark has an opt-out - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_Agreement_(1992)

[ChuckNorris89]

Could be. AFAIK, Denmark has several opt-outs on EU laws, just like UK had.

[consp]

A lot of times (like in NL) this is only valid for cross border claims. Local claims are not allowed under this procedure.

[philistine]

No need to only talk about the US, this weird foreign country also has small claims courts.

https://kahanelaw.com/alberta-provincial-court-process-under...

[drewcoo]

> . . . small claims courts . . .

That is one possible way to respond.

Another useful response is getting the media to publish a story and give AMZN a little public shame. It helps pressure the company to "do the right thing."

Best of all, people don't need to choose only one!

> . . . loyal customers . . . Amazon doesn't care about that . . .

Makes for an even better bad publicity story, though, doesn't it?

[heliodor]

Probably best to have evidence. I'd video myself opening any item for which fraud runs high.

[jojobas]

It goes both ways. It would be very easy to fabricate an unboxing with a rock inside instead of a video card and go to small claims court.

[kuschku]

That's why, for large items from untrustworthy retailers, I start filming the moment the delivery person rings the bell and film the entire handover process, including signing the delivery, constantly keeping the product in frame until the package is open, I've got out the product, installed it in a test setup, and it's actually working.

I ordered a GPU on ebay earlier this year, and followed this process to the letter to make sure I'd have proof if the product arrived broken.

[ElevenLathe]

This is crazy. If you're really doing this (and I don't have any reason not to believe you), something has gone horribly wrong as a society. If the only thing keeping people from ripping each other off on routine business transactions is (probably still fakeable) evidence gathered by filming yourself constantly like receiving a package is a reality show, then one of the parties to this transaction should not be in business anymore. The fact that it isn't speaks of deep corruption.

[kuschku]

I bought the RX 6800XT when it had been just released and never received it. I submitted a police report, reported it to PayPal, etc, but I never got my money back.

After such a loss, I think it's normal to go to such measures. Having my partner use my videography kit to film the entire handover takes only a few minutes but if it can save me so much money, it'd be stupid not to.

And yes, I believe that if we as a society have reached a point where even with evidence and a police report no one in the chain feels responsible to act, we're fucked.

[theturtletalks]

I actually do the same thing for big purchases. I’m not sure it would sway Amazon to return your money though. Would be good if you went the legal route.

[philistine]

That's what happens when the GPU market is coopted by the crypto crowd.

[randcraw]

No, this is what happens when each step in the sales chain is not held accountable. The only cure for this is to demand each middleman validate and be held responsible for maintaining product integrity. Only when malefactors are identified and removed from the sales & distribution process can buyers hope not to be cheated.

The problem today is nobody is guarding the henhouse. The fox is having a field day. (Or in this case, it's Fox Books from "You've Got Mail".)

[jwalton]

I’m in Canada, and live on a high traffic street. Not sure how it works in other countries, but here Amazon runs their own courier service called Intelcom. I can guarantee if I bought a $1000 item from Amazon, they’d dump it on my front porch without ringing the bell.

[mindslight]

I'm all for routinely doing the diligence you can. But doing so shouldn't be a de facto requirement either. If Amazon is an "untrustworthy" retailer, so is basically everywhere. And nobody has time to wait around for a package and catch the delivery person, nor interrupt the rest of their day to immediately use the item. And it's going to gall you just as much if Amazon defrauds you over a $20 item or a $700 one.

[kuschku]

I don't care if I lose $20, but $700 is still quite a lot of money and worth fighting over.

And honestly, every other online retailer is more trustworthy than Amazon, because they're not marketplaces, and you can actually reach humans who are allowed to make decisions. Something that Amazon is sorely lacking.

That said, it's not an "Amazon" issue, it's an issue with all marketplaces.

[mindslight]

I'm going to care either way, because I would fight with their phone support and go through the credit card dispute process regardless of the amount, for the principle of the matter. I probably wouldn't take the $20 to small claims court though, unless I had lots of free time. Though ultimately I can understand that your getting defrauded out of $700 stings a lot more than if you were defrauded out of $20.

> because they're not marketplaces

Most online retailers are turning into marketplaces. That's the doubly unfortunate thing about Amazon's shitty business practices - everyone else sees them and feels compelled to adopt them.

Trying to name retailers that sell electronics that aren't marketplaces - B&H, Adorama, Bestbuy. Maybe Monoprice? Although they've expanded their selection so much, it feels like something dodgy is going on.

I'm actually a big fan of eBay because despite being a marketplace, they don't handle inventory themselves so the incentives line up better - they understand sellers will sometimes ship broken items, try to stonewall returns, etc. I understand the fees are a bit high for sellers. But as a buyer, being buyer-friendly is my #1 concern, and eBay understands buyers are the ones with the money.

Then again I could be one ML classification or policy change away from eBay's dispute process not being so favorable to me, too. Although I haven't had to do one in a while - most sellers have made peace with buyers' power and just offer free shipping for returns.

[moron4hire]

LOL, your delivery guy doesn't just dump everything on the doorstep as quietly as they can? Or for anything requiring a signature (actually, can't remember the last time I had that through Amazon) run up and stick the "customer wasn't home" sticker on the door without even trying the doorbell or knocking?

I have been working from home, my wife also working from home--so driveway full of cars--and on several occasions heard their truck door slam, only to find that sticker on the door.

FedEx, UPS, DHL, and all the random, local, "last mile" shippers here seem to all have a policy to not actually even try for signature-required delivery until at least the second attempt.

[null_object]

One time I happened to be standing in my doorway chatting to a friend when I got the call from FedEx/UPS to say they were (at that very moment) trying to get into my building but couldn't and didn't have the time to wait. While on the phone and very confused I happened to look around the street and saw the driver sitting in his van 20 meters away talking to me on his phone.

When I said this, he very sheepishly came over with my package.

otoh I'm guessing the poor guy probably didn't have time to piss while delivering > 1.5x the maximum possible number of deliverable packages in a normal working day.

And this was at least an improvement on getting the "we couldn't deliver your package because you were not home" email the day after you've waited in all day to receive it.

[counttheforks]

> otoh I'm guessing the poor guy probably didn't have time to piss while delivering > 1.5x the maximum possible number of deliverable packages in a normal working day.

He should take that up with his employer or switch jobs. Not gaslight customers. The amount of fedex deliveries where they claimed I wasn't home has been absurd lately. I have a doorbell camera, and checked. No fedex truck ever appeared all day.

[OJFord]

Funny how different something as mundane as deliveries (and as widespread as Amazon) can be.

> your delivery guy doesn't just dump everything on the doorstep as quietly as they can?

Never had that, no.

> Or for anything requiring a signature (actually, can't remember the last time I had that through Amazon)

They email & show in 'my orders' numeric codes to give the driver who then enters and verifies them. (This verifies they actually delivered it too, since they don't know the code, just enter what you tell them.)

> run up and stick the "customer wasn't home" sticker on the door without even trying the doorbell or knocking?

You get stickers on your doors? Here in the UK (with any courier) it's a piece of paper through the letterbox that says missed/with a neighbour/in your safe place/whatever.

I suppose that's because you have mailboxes outside with little flags rather than letterboxes in doors, so they don't want to try to deliver to your door and then look for that as well when it doesn't work, easier just to stick something on the door where they already are?

[moron4hire]

> I suppose that's because you have mailboxes outside with little flags rather than letterboxes in doors

That's mostly only rural areas. Where I am, the houses either have letter slots in the door as you described, or a letter box attached to the house next to the front door.

Our previous place had a letter slot. But the place we just moved into has put the letter box next to the side door, at the end of the driveway. It's hit-or-miss where deliveries will get left, but most of the time it's at the front door, the one we don't check on a regular basis because we're usually going out the side door to get to our cars.

[kuschku]

I'm in Germany, so I've never had trouble with the delivery people just leaving packages or telling me that they couldn't deliver them. If I don't get a package on the announced date, I'll usually just get it the next day.

[bad416f1f5a2]

You are worried that an Amazon lawyer is going to contest your evidence in small claims court.

You probably don’t need to be concerned: they’re unlikely to show, so you’ll just get summary judgement.

[kennend3]

Canada has the same system (provincial level small claims courts).

This took place in Alberta so - https://albertacourts.ca/pc/areas-of-law/civil/claims