Ask HN: How do you fight unjust bans from online platforms?

[corsac]

Many people have become reliant on platforms like AirBnB, Paypal, and Facebook to the extent that losing access would have a significant adverse impact on their lives or livelihoods. At the same time, many of these platforms are well known for suspending or banning unsuspecting users without providing information about their reasons for doing so, and without providing any clear path to appeal or escalate.

Faced with such a suspension or ban, what approaches are most likely to be effective in getting it reversed? Are there actions one can take that most users might be unaware of?

[vasco]

I've been banned from adsense recently, affecting 4 websites that have been live for ~10 years because presumably someone incorrectly thinks I'm incentivising hacking when none of the websites are even tangentially related to this.

Appeal denied within 2 weeks, most likely automated, no ability to recourse anywhere. And with the near monopoly on ads google has, I'm either out of pocket on server costs from now on, or have to go to a lower quality network that may distribute malware and get further impacted by Google SEO. My answer so far has been to try to not think about it, because there's no recourse unless you have friends at Google, which I don't.

[beaker52]

This is exactly what I hate about companies. They’re not human and often the “computer says no”. It boils my blood like no other.

Want to talk to someone? Try our help section. Clicked the right links to find a contact form? We’ll reply in 7-10 business days. Didn’t resolve your query? This email was sent from a no-reply email address. Pissed off? Even if you’re not we’ll repeatedly send you an unsolicited feedback request form for the next 3 weeks. Submitted your feedback? Psych! We sunk your time! It’s actually a multi-page form: now spend more time answering questions on inf-1 dimensions that our agent served you.

There has to be a better way. I’m not convinced that software is it.

[nicbou]

Have you considered affiliate links? They pay better with less disruption. Depending on what your websites are about, it might work well.

[anonym29]

The tricks are mostly proactive / strategic rather than reactive.

• Don't rely on platforms you have no control over in the first place. PayPal can close your PayPal account, but nobody can close your self-custody Bitcoin wallet. Self-ownership comes with some risks, but it negates some others. The solution is to use both (and others), which brings us to our next point -

• If you must use some platforms you have no control over, have functionality redundancies in place with other providers, to eliminate single points of failure. You can encourage customers to use alternative payment mechanisms by offering price incentives to lesser utilized mechanisms. Obviously you don't want to lose too much money, but there is a case to be made that getting 100% of your potential profit, but getting it from one payment provider is riskier than getting 90% of your potential profit, split across two payment providers. This works for ad buys too, rather than just receiving revenue.

As far as reactive techniques go, getting in contact with customer service and saying your account was hijacked because your computer got hacked and you had your password saved can be effective if there was a specific behavior/condition you are confident that caused the ban, which you are also confident you can avoid in the future. This excuse is particularly good because it offers an explanation not only for the behavior, but also for almost all of the metrics/identifiers that would be used to validate it was you - IP address, useragent, etc.

[simfree]

To add to this, using hidden points of escalation are one of the few ways you have for appealing bans or restrictions from platforms that you can't avoid.

Stripe

- Comment on one of the Stripe founders threads with your issue, email them too

- Make a well written HN post about your Stripe issue at the right time of day and share it with your friends

Google

- Have Googlers you know file an internal ticket on your behalf

- LinkedIn search Google employees and email them (first & last name @google.com iirc). Poke enough employees with a positively written ask for help and they might file a ticket

- If your domain gets flagged by Google Safe Browsing, remove all outdated DNS entries and drop all traffic from Google's ASN on remaining servers, then have them rescan your domain in Google Search Console Tools.

Note that Google silently proxies any users that click through the Safe Browsing warning in Chrome, so blocking their ASN will break this workaround for Chrome users

[oska]

Your first two points are great.

However your third point advocates lying, which many great moral/religious thinkers have explicitly warned against, and for good reason (it rots the soul).

[bombcar]

If you are aboveboard you need to diversify, because you WILL eventually eat a ban.

If you are not aboveboard, then just keep climbing back on using various tricks, as you won't really care.

[johncoltrane]

Take a moment to appreciate how bad the idea of relying so much on those platforms was in the first place and think about less postmodern ways to earn a living.

[cyberphobe]

I'm sure your useless statement will be of great relief to the victims of the various megacorporations that control many of the critical components of our society.

[ls15]

GP's comment is useful. It is putting the finger in the wound. The megacorps are only megacorps, because we (not me actually) flocked to them, fell for their promises, gave away our data (mine too) and grew them into what they are today, while ridiculing those who point out the unhealthy dynamics.

[KronisLV]

> GP's comment is useful. It is putting the finger in the wound.

This might be useful in regards to learning from this mistake in the future, but is absolutely useless as far as actionable advice "now" goes.

Consider a made up example, in which I go trekking without proper boots and end up spraining an ankle. Then the comment becomes essentially:

  Take a moment to appreciate how bad the idea of not wearing proper boots was in the first place and think about less dangerous ways to traverse terrain.

And yet, I'd still be injured that very moment, suggestions that are relevant in the future are meaningless as far as immediate action goes.

The circumstances are much the same way for people who have had their ad revenue cut off, their channels on video sharing platforms or social media platforms closed and are no longer able to do sponsorships or generate profit in other ways through their content, or people who are unable to use their e-mail accounts or other online identities to even log into other platforms, or just straight up cannot pay for anything because their platform of choice has now blocked them, or possibly is even holding their company's money hostage.

They need to put food (and money) on the table now, they need to get access to the services which have been cut off now (or ASAP), saying that they made the wrong choice in their reliance on those parties is truthful, but also not helpful. Furthermore, even the longer term suggestions won't always be actionable: they most likely won't find many alternatives to something like PayPal or Stripe, they will still use one ad network at the end of the day, they won't be able to host their own e-mail servers and so on.

Some advice that may be of more use in the long term to lessen the impact:

  - use a VPN (or multiple VPNs) to prevent IP address bans, or location restrictions
  - use separate browser instances/containers (or even something like Qubes OS) for various purposes, maybe VMs as an alternative
  - ideally you'd have different devices for purposes like that, for example, some companies have special laptops that are the only ones that can be used to access prod, treat accessing cloud services like that (which might help with fingerprinting, especially if on a separate VLAN as well)
  - have different accounts for different things if you use a single provider for more than one function (e.g. separate account for cloud services, another one for e-mail, another for ads)
  - use different providers for different things, when possible (e.g. one for your domains, one for your e-mails, get your servers in another one and so on)
  - use virtual credit cards whenever possible, or means of payment where you can have multiple accounts for different purposes (e.g. private purchases vs subscription services vs paying for domains and servers and so on, maybe separate accounts for income and expenses)
  - either have multiple different bank accounts or maybe go as far as to have different legal entities be in charge of these accounts (register companies if needed, so the platforms aren't dealing with "you" personally and instead only your company's account might accidentally be banned)

But if you haven't done any of that and still have problems right now, consider:

  - publicly reaching out to representatives of the company on Twitter, Facebook or other platforms where this issue will get visibility, their support is most likely automated and useless otherwise
  - doing that in niche communities like HN can also be good, given that some of their devs/representatives might lurk around (someone also suggested e-mailing people in the org directly)
  - if that doesn't work, name and shame, ideally with a blog post (or a YouTube video if you have a following there) that goes into details and doesn't paint the company in a good light, share it as much as possible
  - if the problem is that the company is being unreasonable (e.g. they refuse to accept your app in their store and claim that you need a way to report content in it, when you clearly do, which you explain to them, but they don't get it), don't complain and just play along, claim that you've done the necessary changes, maybe change the code a bit so the hashes are different and that's that, maybe add one of those pop-up tutorial messages like "See anything objectionable? You can report content here." on the first run.

(none of these are perfect, but they're in most cases better than doing nothing)

[ls15]

> (none of these are perfect, but they're in most cases better than doing nothing)

While they are helpful for avoiding deeper damage, I would summarize them with "Playing with fire without getting burned (probably)", while none of them do what is actually needed in order to fix the situation permanently: "Stop feeding the beast"

[KronisLV]

> none of them do what is actually needed in order to fix the situation permanently: "Stop feeding the beast"

You are free to use third party app stores... and have basically no income because very few people use them.

You are free to use more open video sharing platforms and social networks... and have your content not be as discoverable, because once again, very few people use them.

You are free to use third party payment processors... and run into issues with integrating them or what locations they support.

As an individual, the network effects are too large and any attempts to fix the situation might need to start with legislation. As it currently stands, you are simply putting yourself at a disadvantage compared to others who go the "easy route", which may or may not be worth for you in the name of integrity.

Personally, when I want to put a video online or something, I don't say: "Okay, let's fix the world's issues and start with political advocacy." I also don't say: "Okay, let's review all of the video platforms and then spend the majority of my time trying to get more people on the platform of my choice." (some do, with varying degrees of success) I just put the video on YouTube.

Well, to be honest, I also have backups on a self-hosted instance of PeerTube and de-cloud myself as much as possible (e.g. self-hosted Nextcloud) and have all of my VPSes run FOSS in them and be easily replaceable (thanks to local backups), instead of allowing too much vendor lock to happen.. but that's besides the point, when you think about content that others consume in particular, network effect reigns supreme: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect

[mysecretaccount]

> postmodern

I do not think that word is appropriate in this context.

[CamperBob2]

Well, that's your call.

[lovvtide]

You make the data layer deeper than the platform.

Platforms should be clients, not silos. Effective moderation is super necessary. And building a community is really hard. You need a level playing field for platforms to actually figure out and compete on the basis of how well they can solve these problems instead of figuring out how to maintain their status as gatekeepers. The fediverse is a step in this direction but (currently) it's still too siloed and fragile, since server admins can delete all your data on a whim, effectively resetting whatever equity you have built around your social profile.

You should check out a blogging platform called Satellite. The goal is to start building a universal, interoperable data layer that other apps can fork or built on top of by signing all the data and publicly releasing an archive/snapshot of the total network state every 28 days.

Satellite -> https://satellite.earth

Discloser: I'm the developer

[cyberphobe]

You can't. They have no financial reason to give a shit about you. If screwing you over is more profitable than not, or looks like it probably will be, they will screw you over.

[cyberphobe]

if you have a problem with this: simply be born into wealth, then you might be able to do something about this.

[tempestn]

Keep trying to find a real thinking person to talk to. Eventually you may get someone who will actually look into the issue. It often takes multiple attempts, and usually you'll have to dig for that contact info. For example I once lost access to a company facebook page. There was no official way to recover it or contact a human, but I created a Facebook ads account, and was able to get support there to look into it and get the page recovered.

[jrockway]

I think you just get a new unique identifier and start over, right? None of these sites know who "you" are, they only have information about certain identifiers that you are in control of. First they ban your email, and you can create an infinite number of those for free. Then they ban your IP address, and you unplug your cable modem and plug it back in, and that problem is solved. Then they ban your phone number, but you can have a brand new one in minutes. Then they ban "you" based on your driver's license, but you just move to a new state and change your name, and get a brand new one that's not in their system. Facebook doesn't have a team of private detectives surveilling you 24 hours a day.

Realistically, I feel like the Tech Companies are losing against their more traditional peers, except maybe Amazon. Maybe social media is a big part of your life and you got banned, but I think it's pretty much on the way out. Nobody can make money with social media, it seems. AirBnB seems to have whipped traditional hotel companies into shape; better rates and less nickeling and diming. Now it's AirBnB that surprises you with a $200 "cleaning fee" because you didn't wash the coffee pot with soap and water. Paypal? Just make your customers pay you with Zelle. The incumbents caught up to the tech disruptors, and the incumbents are actually regulated.

[neilv]

All the examples are US companies. One way to look at the problem is US companies disregarding principles of US government/society: due process, transparency, accountability.

[rsstack]

> All the examples are US companies. One way to look at the problem is US companies disregarding

Another is that there aren't many European companies that are internationally dominant. Customers and partners get banned from Booking.com (a Dutch company), so there's that.

[midoridensha]

>One way to look at the problem is US companies disregarding principles of US government/society: due process, transparency, accountability.

It's all just symptoms of the decline of US society.

[kkfx]

Due to the fact I have VERY LITTLE practicals ways to protect myself I do my best to avoid and suggest anybody to avoid depending on such platforms. When I can't and something happen I go straight with a formal complaint to the local legal dep address electing domicile for the reply to my local lawyer coupled with a ferocious but formally never insulting nor illegal campaign to publicize what happen on all media I can access.

Those who live like mobsters against others like them fear those who know how to use the society against them, not easy nor cheap in all cases, but mostly works well.

Essentially I treat them for what they are, in a calm and merciless manner. Beside that your personal option is ZERO. At a social level the option is MANDATE BY LAWs certain practices to sanctions mobsters and bully enough they decide change their attitude. Actually however most people do the very opposite, acting a soldiers fighting for their enemy demanding even more platformisation and corporatocracy... Witch means avoid the need to fight as much as possible is the sole protection for now.

[edent]

Private businesses are under no obligation to do business with you. We live in a capitalist society where you are free to choose one of their many competitors.

If, however, you find yourself excluded from a monopoly provider, there are a few strategies you can use.

Argue with them. You might get lucky and find a customer support agent who is sympathetic (or apathetic).

GDPR them. Send a Subject Access Request and ask for information they hold about you. They should also give you the opportunity to appeal against any automated decisions.

Go to their regulator. Most companies are regulated by another institution.

Sue them. If you think your exclusion is illegal (if they've banned you for being disabled, for example) then you may be able to to take them to court.

Speak to your local democratic representative. Explain to them what problems this ban is causing. A letter from an MP usually receives a bit more attention than an email from a suspended customer.

Finally, go to their competitor. If they have no competitor, speak to whoever regulates monopolies in your area.

[FrontierPsych]

I know what you're saying but a utility company can't just cut off power or water to a home, just for no specific reason at all.

Personally, I think a lot of these platforms, at this point, are utilities. Without them, a person can't really interact with the larger world.

I know a lot of people will disagree with me, but that is just how I feel about it.

[_trampeltier]

I think a bit the same as you, an email account is a bit like an utility. But i don't think it will ever happen, a right to an email account, a right to have paypal, a right to have an youtube account.

I think just the EU has a right to have a basic banc account.

[oska]

The big platforms are being heavily leaned on by the US government to ban and censor users of those platforms. It's not a clear cut case of 'private businesses are under no obligation to do business with you'. And the US government prefers this way of suppressing free speech, as it gets them around the first amendment (i.e. they are not directly banning and censoring themselves, but indirectly through the platforms).

[LinuxBender]

Faced with such a suspension or ban, what approaches are most likely to be effective in getting it reversed? Are there actions one can take that most users might be unaware of?

I do not believe there is a great or universal answer for this. In my utopian vision, people would just leave platforms that have been tainted in this manor and let their wallets to the voting. Some have started to leave PayPal after their recent malfeasant behavior.

Short of that, one would need to:

- have friends working at that platform that could effect change

- convince a wealthy person or company to acquire the company or make a new platform that is so enticing that people leave the old one, accepting it will also become tainted with time and still will not please everyone.

- be an influencer with a significant number of followers or have an influencer friend that will speak out on your behalf.

Many people have become reliant on platforms

Perhaps this is the root of the problem that really needs to be addressed and I do not have a good answer that could apply to the masses. I believe each person would have to reflect on the reasons why these platforms have become critical path for them individually and find alternate paths even if they are less optimal. These platforms are not going to change. For good or bad we have all just witness what was required to make changes at Twitter and even then, the outcome will not make everyone happy.

[seydor]

Demand regulation. It is astounding that e.g. paypal is not subject to the requirements that banks have

[autotune]

It's even more astounding consumers treat it like a bank, and even more that they use it in the first place over any number of alternatives available right now.

[seydor]

In europe, they are actually registered as a bank. I guess that has some legal consequences for european users. But overall the line between banks and these companies is blurred

[acqbu]

You simply don't. As many have already said, there's little chance of success and it's largely a waste of time.

A better question would be how to reduce your risk of getting there in the first place? Some examples below.

1) The best thing to do is to avoid such platforms altogether. I know it sounds difficult, but think of it:

* post on your own blog, rather than twitter, dev.to, hashnode etc

* own a domain name - if your provider bans you, you can find another one; if gmail bans you, good luck appealing that

* back up your data regularly and store it on external device

2) Don't put all your eggs in the same basket:

* list your property on airbnb, booking etc

* use multiple cloud storage providers to store copies of the same (ideally encrypted) data * use a variety of ad networks combined with affiliate marketing and directly sponsored ads

* use multiple email addresses for various things (trivial stuff, personal, programming, business, freelance etc)

3) Think risk management and always seek to understand the implications of getting banned on a particular platform as well as the steps you can take to avoid that and, if it does happen, to mitigate the impact.

[POPOSYS]

Do we have an open, decentralized platform that collects and publishes cases of bans?

Of course, every user will cry "unjust ban" while still advertising casino coins or spreading lies. So there are some questions about how such openly documented cases should be reported and how readers can get a full picture, but to me it still seems useful.

[konsolebox]

Get a purely decentralized platform at the expense of zero moderation.

[actually_a_dog]

I wish I knew. For some reason, I'm only allowed to post 5 comments per account per $RELATIVELY_LONG_PERIOD_OF_TIME on this very website. I also, for some reason, end up with a lot of downvotes on what look to me like reasonable comments that actually attract a good amount of upvotes initially.

Love me, hate me, or anything in between, but I don't think I violate the guidelines any more than those people who are still in the site's good graces. Since I have no idea exactly _why_ I'm so severely rate limited here, I have no idea how to get out of the dog house, either. Emails have gone unanswered, so I can only assume nobody really cares about my problem.

[bcrosby95]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWWtrW0oI1E

[john_the_writer]

Buy the platform?

[anonym29]

Just make sure you're prepared to deal with unsolvable challenges on the bleeding edge of computer science, like having >1000 poorly batched RPC's /s

[chris_wot]

You could always publicly complain about an area you have no idea about on the platform you purchased and then sack all the staff.

[POPOSYS]

And while we are at it - how do we fight unjust NOT-bans, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33727981 ?

[postultimate]

If the company bans you, they are publicly claiming you have performed a disreputable action of some kind. If you have not, why not sue them for defamation ?

[Lapsa]

ditch them. why do you want to be on an unjust online platform?

[theCrowing]

You take them to arbitration.

[AIboxed]

I'm really interested in how one can do this

[POPOSYS]

You know you are asking on a platform that is censoring and banning comments / users?

[Am4TIfIsER0ppos]

Buy them for 44B

[ShamelessC]

Move on.

[Konohamaru]

You can't fight City Hall.

[CamperBob2]

Your state legislature can, though.

[mgarfias]

Give up.