[mark_l_watson]

I agree with you “Processed foods, excessive simple carbohydrates and sugars are the main evils in the kitchen, but there are a variety of reasons to eat less meat too.”

I like to eat red meat two or three times a month: tasty and I think some red meat is healthy for me.

I avoid any packaged food except I am too lazy to always make homemade bread. +1 for shopping for fresh vegetables, fruits, berries, whole grains, beans,…

Really, the main center parts of grocery stores where everything is in plastic or boxes really needs to be avoided.

As a substitute for packaged deserts, making a pancake and berries is pretty good.

[sgc]

The main reason people eat so unhealthily in the US is the price gouging in the vegetable aisle.

My wife came home with a small bag of brussel sprouts and some "gourmet" Baklava that weighed a bit less, but not much. Virtually the same price.

It is very common for (cardboard tasting) tomatoes, which come from a high-production plant, to cost as much or even more than meat, that comes from a plant-consuming animal and then butchered and constantly refrigerated. the vegetable/meat price ratio in the US means vegetables are comparatively 3-5x+ more expensive than any of the many other places I have lived. They are more like 10x less expensive than meat in in some places I have lived. The same goes for nuts to carbs, etc. And you will feel it immediately in lack of energy and hunger if you don't have protein and the sufficient number of daily calories, while lack of vegetables mainly leads to a more subtle lack of general health.

[aaronax]

If you were to consider that in ye olden days the majority of things in the vegetable aisle would have been simply unavailable out of season, does it seem a bit less like price gouging? Transport is likely the most significant cost.

I suppose our food production has generally centralized over time to the regions that can grow these vegetables all year, and almost no vegetables are grown locally. So we end up paying the transportation costs, even during the four weeks in the fall when we could be overwhelmed by cheap locally-grown vegetables.

My ability to get broccoli in November in North Dakota is quite remarkable?

[thewebcount]

That's an interesting point. I live in Southern California, in Los Angeles. I'm maybe a 50 minute drive from Oxnard where a large portion of our vegetables are grown. (If I recall, more vegetables in the US come from Ventura County than any other place in the world.) They don't have to be shipped very far and a lot more stuff is in season here than in other parts of the country. Just checking the things the person above mentioned on my local Ralph's (Kroger's), I see the cheapest ground beef = $5.99/lb. and brussels sprouts are $2.99/lb. for loose sprouts. That seems like a high price ratio to me, but I certainly don't know all of the logistics.

[borvo]

No. Veggies are much less expensive in many other countries with similar selections available. Something is different in the US.

[peanuty1]

Might be corn subsidies in the US.

[dfxm12]

My ability to get broccoli in November in North Dakota is quite remarkable?

Oh, it is remarkable, but this is an honest question, do you really care?

I mean, I could get fresh tomatoes year round, but they're garbage outside of summer. When we buy things in season, they tend to be cheaper and taste better. Right now in my area, apples are plentiful and cheap! I really wish my supermarket would do some curation of products and only put the best stuff out for sale. I honestly don't care that I wouldn't be able to buy any (expensive, bland) fresh tomatoes right now. That's why we have cans...

[Spooky23]

Buyer beware. You need to shop.

I can go to Whole Foods and pay $10 for a bag of mini-cucumbers. Or I can go to Aldi and pay $3 for the same product picked from the same field and delivered regionally on the same train.

The answer people have to that is “I’m too busy and don’t have time to do that”. Grocery stores collect a lot of market intelligence and price to the audience. That’s why a tomato with a wholesale price of $0.50 costs more than a nice steak. Or why they sell pre-chopped carrots and onions to helpless people with money but without skill for $15/lb.

[dsfyu404ed]

If you shopped for vegetables like you did for meat (i.e. in the frozen food isle) most of that price difference would evaporate.

Fresh vegetables have a lot of handling, refrigeration and shipping timeline requirements that add a lot to the cost.

[achenatx]

people eat unhealthily because they are lazy and fat/sugar are addictive.

In season fruits and vegetables are inexpensive. You can easily find vegetables that are under $2/pound. Eating half a pound of vegetables a day (most people dont) is a dollar a day.

carrots are typically $1/pound, green peppers $2/pound, cabbage .67/pound, peas .35/pound, green beans $2/pound, broccoli 2/pound

beef is expensive, but chicken and sometimes pork are less expensive.

[sgc]

What people do is irrelevant, because they don't eat enough, and that is my complaint. My family is recommended to eat about 10-12 cups of vegetables (not fruits and vegetables) per day as per [1]. There is always significant waste with vegetables as well, unless we want to act like buying fresh vegetables and preparing them is a luxury reserved for the rich. That is far more than half a pound per person. We shop at 5-7 different stores every week (thanks to our location we can do this), to find the best values on various items. We don't do farmers markets, whole foods, or anything that is not very average and typical. Our evening salad, which is not fancy but not meager, covers about half this requirement, and costs us about $15. If somebody wants to claim salad is a luxury and people should just eat cabbage, I hope you learn to have a more dignified worldview. Also, I have not seen such low prices around here for quite some time, outside of limited sales that you cannot rely on for more than a portion of your purchases.

[1] https://www.myplate.gov/eat-healthy/vegetables

[2OEH8eoCRo0]

The true cost of meat and processed foods is obscured by corn subsidies.

[dfxm12]

I don't know if price gouging is the right phrase in this context. Products with processed stuff, including sugar & cheese, can be cheaper because it tends to be subsidized. I don't think supermarkets are gouging any more on veggies than anything else.

The government really could focus on subsidizing healthier food options and stop subsidizing taco bell's crunch wrap things, pizza hut's stuffed crust pizza or various colas.

[bayofpigs]

Shopping yesterday and was shocked to see a single head of cauliflower for $7.99/each.

[SantalBlush]

Personally speaking, the main setback of fresh fruits and vegetables isn't the taste or the inconvenience of cooking with them, it's the spoilage. They go bad so quickly that it's a chore to keep them around and make sure they get used in time.

[hardwaregeek]

Going against what was just said, but there's no shame in buying frozen vegetables, especially peas and corn. They're quite nutritious and easy to store.

Fresh vegetables can stay good too if you buy the right kinds. I've found that asian leafy green vegetables like yu choy or gai lan keep a lot better. The leaves may turn a little yellow but they don't end up a slimy mess in a day. Cabbage is the western equivalent that keeps forever.

[kevinventullo]

Frozen vegetables have been a lifesaver for me. I’m not up on the latest research, but I remember reading at one point that frozen veggies actually retained more of their nutrients than fresh because they are often frozen immediately after being harvested.

[rglullis]

That is a problem specific to North American/car-centric/suburban cultures, where people buy groceries once or twice a month.

In places where the grocery shops are within walking distance and more integrated with your life, you just make groceries more frequently. Consequently, the food you buy is always fresher.

[slifin]

Didn't even think of that

There's so many things linked to poorer outcomes when associated with car dominate design

[dumpsterlid]

I really really have a grudge against being born in a country that is so car-centric/surburban. It reduces my quality of life in soooooo many ways.

[safety1st]

A lot of this can be solved by cooking your extras into something that freezes well using one of the basic techniques. Soups, stews, casseroles etc. can use up almost any random vegetables you have lying around, no formal recipe required, just keeping around a few basics like oil, butter, flour for thickening/dumplings, and your favorite spices.

I recently had a pile of potatoes sitting around for reasons unclear, now I've got several portions of an amazing potato chowder sitting in the freezer, ready to nuke in minutes when I want them. I had a spare onion and carrot lying around so those went in too, worked out great, no planning or recipe required aside from keeping basic cooking staples on hand.

Alternatively most raw vegetables (and fruits!) can be pickled. While you do have to get the proportions roughly correct, making refrigerator pickles is as simple as throwing extra sliced veggies into a jar with water, vinegar and salt (herbs and spices optional to your preference). The acidity keeps them from going bad.

Fruits can be turned into freezer preserves almost as easily. Almost any combination you have lying around can be mashed and cooked down on the stove as much or as little as you want with some sugar, pectin is optional. They'll last for months in the freezer, weeks in the fridge.

People think I'm a cooking genius when they see all this random stuff in my fridge but it's all so easy, the truth is I just don't like waste.

[greyhair]

Frozen vegetables are good. Some canned vegetables retain their flavor and nutrition as well. Some canned veggies are just a hot mess (I am looking at you, canned asparagus). Canned beets are fine. Canned corn is fine in most recipes.

The beauty of canned goods is that you don't expend energy to store them.

The beauty of frozen veggies (and some frozen fruits, blueberries for example) is that they keep and work well for small quantities. I ate a lot of frozen veggies when I was single.

[Thlom]

The problem with frozen vegetables is that they very easily loose texture. If you fry them they will in practice boil instead of being fried. The only thing that works in my experience is to throw them in boiling water and then just let the water boil again and finished. Or use them directly in a stew or soup or something like that.

[hunter2_]

Depends. Apples, carrots, citrus last a surprisingly long time in the fridge. Tomatoes prefer room temp. Extra bread always skips the fridge, right to the freezer. Freeze things rapidly, thaw them slowly. Plenty of tricks.

[Cupertino95014]

True. But some keep better than others.

Cabbage, for instance, keeps longer than lettuce. Pluots keep, too, much better than peaches. Oranges, tangerines, and grapes keep well. Carrots keep pretty much forever.

[denton-scratch]

I live on my own; I find it hard to use up veggies before they go off. It was easier when I was in a couple. (It's hard, or at least embarrassing, to buy two carrots and one large spud).

[Floegipoky]

I went through this for years and was always felt so discouraged and guilty. I didn't have the repertoire or financial pressure to use the "leftovers". It changed completely for me when I decided to stop buying cuts like packaged chicken breasts and started buying whole chickens and making stocks and sauces. Now when I look in the fridge at the end of the week and see old, sad vegetables I get excited because I'm going to turn them into delicious stock. I feel so much better because my food waste has reduced by an order of magnitude, the food is tastier, the house smells great, and cooking this way is compatible with local, sustainable agriculture (I'm looking for a poultry operation in my area). But I have to acknowledge, it's a lot easier because I work from home.

[OJFord]

> I avoid any packaged food except I am too lazy to always make homemade bread.

Ha, so do I, except if you started forcing me to give in to certain things bread would be one of the last I'd be willing to give up. (Unless I was allowed 'packaged' bread from an actual baker I suppose.)

Pre-sliced supermarket bread has to be me the most miserable yet widespread thing in existence, can't stand the stuff any more.

[personjerry]

> Really, the main center parts of grocery stores where everything is in plastic or boxes really needs to be avoided.

But that's where things are cheap and convenient! :(

[ClumsyPilot]

Its not cheap at all, in most countries you have markets where you buy corn by weight for $1 a kilo or whatever.

UK supermarkets sell one cob cut into two halves, wrapped in plastic for $2

[bcrosby95]

I don't know how prices translate, but where I live in the US you usually get corn in the husk for $1 each. I prefer it in the husk because cooking with it on makes it taste better.

[bluGill]

Here in Iowa we only buy corn in season. Picked the same day, on the husk for $6/dozen. I won't even touch the packaged stuff you sometimes see off season, and given how rarely I see if I don't think many others will either. In season the farmer delivers half her corn to the grocery store and sells the other half from the back of her (happens to be a girl where I live, other places it was a man) truck on the side of the road.

[adrian_b]

Until this year I believed that if I would attempt to make bread at home every day I would waste too much time, because I was making bread in a traditional way.

However, after some experimentation, I have discovered that it is possible to make bread in a simplified way, which does not need more than 10 minutes of effective work for one bread made of 500 g of wheat floor (including washing the vessels etc.).

I bake the bread in a microwave oven, in a lid-covered glass vessel. The right baking time must be determined by experiments, in my oven it is 13 minutes @ 1000 W for the dough made of 500 g of floor.

The advantage of the microwave oven is a short baking time and perfect reproducibility. After kneading the dough in a glass bowl for a few minutes, I can put it in the oven and go to do other activities. Now I make at home one bread every day after I wake up, for breakfast.

When baked at microwaves, you can use a leavening agent for a more conventional bread, but even the unleavened bread grows enough for my taste.

Previously I was tempted from time to time to buy some commercial bread or cakes, but now I no longer care about them, I like more my own bread.

[CadmiumYellow]

Wow, do you have a recipe for this? I would love to try it!

[adrian_b]

There is not much of a recipe, because the point is to be simple enough to be easy to make in less than a quarter of hour, every morning.

The simplest bread can be made with nothing else than wheat floor and water, by using the same method as described by Cato the Elder, 2200 years ago (except for using microwaves instead of fire).

With the wheat floor that I use (12.1% proteins), I add water that is 75% of the floor mass, e.g. 375 g water for 500 g floor.

The dough is kneaded for a few minutes, until it becomes homogeneous and elastic.

After kneading, it is possible to bake it immediately. However, in most days I prefer to make a bread with high protein content, in order to not exceed the daily intake of energy that would make me gain weight. For this option, the dough must be left to rest for 30 minutes, to become cohesive, than it can be washed for a few minutes, to remove a large part of the starch, enriching thus the dough in gluten, i.e. protein.

I bake the dough in a glass vessel covered by a lid, 13 minutes @ 1000 W in a microwave oven. The exact time will depend on the oven, so it must be determined by experiments. When the baking time is too long, the bread will harden.

Pure bread must be eaten immediately after cooling. Unlike the commercial bread with additives, it has poor shelf life.

Starting from the simplest bread, there are many options. One is to add a leavening agent, for a softer bread. Now, I prefer the unleavened bread, because when baked in a microwave oven it still grows, maybe 30% of what it might grow with an leavening agent, but it remains more chewy than standard bread. Unless you have untreated teeth problems, this is a good thing, because it causes much more satiety than soft bread in the same quantity. Chewing also keeps your teeth or your dental implants healthy, by stressing the bones.

Some people like to add salt to the bread, so that is another option (when that is done, one should take care that the recommended daily intake of salt is 4 to 5 g, so less salt should be added to other food). Various spices or seeds can also be added before baking.

Another option is to make it sweet, by adding sugar or raisins. Instead of mixing the sugar uniformly in the dough, I prefer to deposit the sugar on the flat dough, before baking, and then roll the dough and bend the resulting cylinder into a torus when transferring into the baking vessel. This method allows the use of less sugar, while still producing an intense enough sweet sensation, due to the alternation of sweetened and unsweetened layers in the baked bread. In this way, I use 50 g sugar for dough made of 500 g floor, but that should be adjusted depending on the individual taste. On the sugar, before rolling, I deposit e.g. cocoa powder (e.g. 5 g for 50 g sugar), vanilla essence, ground cinnamon, ground cloves etc. The advantage of this kind of simplified cake vs. traditional cakes or commercial cakes, besides the very short time for preparation, which allows doing this before breakfast, every day, is that the chewy bread, optionally with high-protein content, can cause satiety after ingesting a much smaller amount than would be needed when eating traditional cakes.

[autotune]

My breakfast these days is usually a few pieces of bacon and oatmeal. I am happy and still managing to burn off weight with that combo.

[411111111111111]

I just wish there was a way to buy meat from animals that hadn’t been systematically tortured for their short life until they were drowned in co2 for easy butchering… the only reason why I try to use as much vegetarian replacement products is because I have moral qualms eating meat from sentient creatures that have been so brutally abused…

And even diary is hard to consume after seeing cows from a bio farm getting herded for milking. They’re in serious pain while getting continuously impregnated to maximise milk production… it’s really hard to stomach for me as I’m not morally opposed to milk/meat consumption… but the way these creatures are treated really make it hard.

[rolfea]

I think there are some operations that are trying to do this well. Granted, I'm probably pretty susceptible to their marketing efforts, but I find White Oak Pastures Farm in GA a really exciting example of an establishment that is pushing back against industrial farming practices. https://whiteoakpastures.com/

The prices reflect this, of course, and I think the economics of more people adjusting their household budgets to eat in an affordable but also environmentally-sustainable way is really pivotal to seeing major change on this front in the future. They also claim to be carbon negative which is really interesting: https://blog.whiteoakpastures.com/blog/carbon-negative-grass.... https://blog.whiteoakpastures.com/hubfs/WOP-LCA-Quantis-2019....

[docandrew]

There are lots of great ranchers and butchers out there who raise their livestock humanely. You’ll probably want a big deep freezer but search for a “half beef” or “whole cow” sales and you’ll likely find a ranch near you that can give you ethical meat, and probably at a better price since you’re buying in bulk. (Many ranches will do smaller steak/burger sales too)

The cool thing is that a lot of these operations partner with butchers who can cut to order, so you get exactly the thickness of steaks you like, certain roasts, Korean-style ribs if you want them, soup bones, shanks, etc. all exactly how you like them.

Grass-fed beef is a superfood!

[autotune]

I don't think it's possible to buy any kind of food that has been treated in a way you can feel morally comfortable with at the majority of traditional grocery stores. Whether it's chocolate being created from cocoa beans farmed with slave labor in other countries, apples getting picked by undocumented workers making less than minimum wage on farms, or frozen foods getting packaged at factories with questionable working conditions. Unless you straight up build your own garden and farm off the grid and do everything yourself your only option is to either feel morally queezy 24/7 or live your best life and maybe donate a couple hundred each month to organizations like The Humane Society that work to improve conditions for you.

[troyvit]

I think you hit it on the head with "the majority of traditional grocery stores." For me those just aren't the place to shop for animal products like meat and dairy. Hit the specialty places for that, pay the premium, and eat less of it. Maybe this one study debunks all the rest of the data out there about red meat, maybe not, but it's a healthy lifestyle that works for me; I only pay to eat meat once or twice a month as a result.

There's one other source of good meat: hunting. I suck at that but I have friends and associates who hunt and they are often trying to get rid of extra meat. Always happy to help with that :)

[autotune]

How about I isolate the red meat and dairy products I purchase to local farmers markets once a week and we'll call it even?

[atsuzaki]

Shop from local farms, if that's an option for you. All suffering won't be eliminated, of course, but if you want to consume animal products, it's way better IMO to support local farmers who are invested in ethical animal treatment and sustainable practices.

[Demiurge]

There untortured grass-fed meat delivery companies out there for example, ButcherBox. Their site is glitchy, but the products are good, I've had them for a while, and now trying some other ones. There are many choices with good delivery now.

[technothrasher]

> I just wish there was a way to buy meat from animals that hadn’t been systematically tortured for their short life

A good portion of the meat I consume comes off my own land, mostly as venison although a little bit of turkey too. It tastes better than farmed meat, it's cheaper, it helps keep the animals from overpopulating, and the animal didn't live a miserable life of torture before it was harvested.

But I get that not everybody lives in an area where that is practical.

[rdevsrex]

You can buy direct from farmer who treats the animals well, either individually or with a group of friends and family. You just have to have the freezer space.

[joxel]

Exactly. And animals that are treated well start out at 3x the price, and when the tortured animal meat prices are already breaking the bank for most people.

[Spinnaker_]

Do you have a 4H program in your area? Those animals are treated like pets. I buy a quarter cow once a year. Higher quality and cheaper than the Grocer.

[JoeAltmaier]

Luckily my neighbor raises free-range animals. So my family has that in the freezer.

But short of moving to the midwest and making friends with your neighboring farmers, I don't know what to tell you.

[rightbyte]

You can buy boar and moose from hunters.

[dahfizz]

Buy from a smaller local farm. The meat is higher quality anyway

[eecc]

Well, CO2 asphyxiation is so far the most humane approach to butchering.

I remember a YouTube of a journalist looking for the most humane technique to administer capital punishment and it turned out that during co2 asphyxia the victim goes light-headed, even laughingly before passing out and away without even realizing. When told about this, Death Sentence advocates were disappointed that the victims wouldn't suffer while the sentence was carried out. (surprising eh!)

[denton-scratch]

CO2 asphyxiation is not kind. The effect of elevated CO2 blood levels is to make you panic that you are suffocating; you struggle for breath. Nitrogen gas is much kinder; you don't know that you are suffocating, you just pass out. (So be extra-vigilant around tanks of N2).

[mplanchard]

Nitrogen asphyxiation is even better, and atmospheric nitrogen is extremely abundant and super cheap.

[marliechiller]

not sure what your definition of humane is but mine certainly isnt this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7hAELEBjX4

[s0rce]

Maybe we have different definitions of bacon but isn't it heavily "processed"? Its cured with nitrates and salt/sugar and smoked.

[Spooky23]

The point of bacon is that it’s cured. Otherwise it’s pork belly.

[Taywee]

Depends on the bacon. You can get uncured bacon without any added nitrates or flavorings at all.

[bboylen]

Sorry to burst your bubble but "uncured" bacon is a sham

They add celery powder instead of nitrates, so they can claim "nitrate free". However, the celery powder just decomposes into nitrates, achieving the same effect

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/food/the-uncured-ba...

[anxiously]

That's not true-- you can buy uncured bacon. It's simply "uncut pork belly" which many companies turn into bacon.

We buy our pork belly direct from a farm and it hasn't been touched with anything.

[bboylen]

Oh yeah that of course exists, didn't mean to imply it didn't.

Just the "uncured" but still processed bacon that is pretty much just regular bacon

[Spooky23]

“No added nitrates” usually means celery extract. (Ie nitrates)

[jnwatson]

Uncut pork belly isn’t bacon. Both are delicious, but definitely not the same thing.

[s0rce]

Isn't that just sliced pork belly? Also, personally, I think if you cook it like bacon its not good, just grey and not flavorful, I just eat traditional bacon infrequently.

[denton-scratch]

If it's not cured, then isn't it just raw pork?