[ericjang]

Can you link the source? My google search of "punctuality and logical objectivity were "white expectations" not to be applied to persons of color" didn't find any exact matches so I'm curious which guide you're referring to.

[causi]

It was actually the National Museum for African American History and Culture.

https://i.imgur.com/jFSGqnl.png

[bawolff]

That seems so american centric.

Like im white and canadian, which is basically the same culture as america, but like a quarter of these seem specificly american to me.

And a bunch seem rediculous to apply as "white culture". Like that your intent matters when it comes to morality. I can appreciate that different cultures fall differently on the spectrum between outcome vs intention, but i highly highly doubt that white people are the only ones who give primacy to intention.

The white people value rationality part seems straight up racist.

[crashingintoyou]

It might seems pretty American, but if you want the Canadian version you can find it here: https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/only-white-people-can-b...

see, e.g., "Characteristics of White Supremacy Culture" docs around 50-60 pages into the document dump at https://www.scribd.com/document/501975490/Government-of-Cana...

[bawolff]

Can you be specific as to what you are trying to say here? The docs dont look remotely comparable to me.

American doc: logical thinking is a part of white culture (with the implication it is not a part of other cultures)

Canadian doc: white supremists are often defensive and hoard power.

[onos]

Absolutely these people are American centric. They aim to convince everyone that USA is uniquely evil and having people look into what humanity has really been up to in any other location or time period would completely discredit their goal.

Similar for communists. Don’t bother asking them for a historical track record of that idea.

[WindyMiller]

It does say 'in the United States'. And it doesn't say that any of these are unique to that culture.

[WindyMiller]

But this doesn't say what you said, and isn't a "racial sensitivity guide" for employees.

[hackinthebochs]

https://archive.ph/u86Ke

>The framework recommends eight times that teachers use a troubling document, “A Pathway to Equitable Math Instruction: Dismantling Racism in Mathematics Instruction.” This manual claims that teachers addressing students’ mistakes forthrightly is a form of white supremacy. It sets forth indicators of “white supremacy culture in the mathematics classroom,” including a focus on “getting the right answer,” teaching math in a “linear fashion,” requiring students to “show their work” and grading them on demonstrated knowledge of the subject matter. “The concept of mathematics being purely objective is unequivocally false,” the manual explains. “Upholding the idea that there are always right and wrong answers perpetuates ‘objectivity.’ ” Apparently, that’s also racist.

It's funny how every single conversation about this stuff spends most of its time debating whether its really happening and almost no time on the actual content of the ideology being pushed.

[causi]

It'd been quite a while since I saw it. I misremembered.

[WindyMiller]

Fair enough. I think a lot of these concerns are based on misrememberings and misunderstandings. I think it would have been helpful to mention when you posted the link that you had misremembered it, though.

[causi]

My apologies. I tried to edit it but I think there are too many replies.

[yrro]

Would you mind editing your original post with a clarification? Most will read it but not the replies...

[fleetwoodsnack]

The user “causi” might as well delete it. The whole premise of their top-level comment was characterizing a “racial sensitivity guide” of which they have no adequate recollection, and cannot provide evidence that it even existed as they described.

A more cynical person might say they’ve injected a red herring into the thread, wasting others’ time.

[krapp]

The phrase "punctuality and logical objectivity (were|are) "white expectations" not to be applied to persons of color" does not appear anywhere in that image, nor does any assertion of the kind.

It's just a (somewhat stereotypical - "bland is best," really?) list of the aspects of Western culture which the author believes derive from "white culture." It doesn't even present these points as negative.

If one were to criticize it, one could point out the degree to which many so-called "white cultural" ideals were founded on a religion not created by white people (Christianity) and non-Judeo-Christian (Greek and Hindu) philosophy and ideals. The European cultural complex didn't arise in a vaccuum.

Also that many of those bullet points seem to be so vague as to be universal. For instance, I doubt white people alone recognize the existence of cause and effect, respect for authority or patriarchy.

But the general premise - that the constructs of white culture (to the degree that it exists, which itself is debated) are considered default in American society, as a function of white supremacy reinforcing that default on all races and suppressing cultural variance in the name of conformity to a white-derived normativity - is correct.

[origin_path]

"the general premise ... is correct"

That can't be, unless one subscribes to a highly racist view of the world. Concepts like "objective, rational linear thinking" are not anything to do with "whiteness" and to even suggest it is, is really quite profoundly insulting to everyone who isn't white.

[krapp]

>Concepts like "objective, rational linear thinking" are not anything to do with "whiteness" and to even suggest it is, is really quite profoundly insulting to everyone who isn't white.

Yes. As I spent several short paragraphs saying exactly just that, and in agreement with that premise. "The constructs of white culture" to which I referred do not refer to the specific items of that list, which I explicitly disclaimed and criticized in my comment.

I probably should have been more specific, precise and exact in my wording and not assumed that people would have put forth more than the minimum effort for a comment that goes against the HN zeitgeist, but I suspect I could have posted an entire essay and no one here would have bothered to actually read all the words. Mea culpa.

[origin_path]

I did read it. You attempted to disclaim the specific claims of the poster whilst also arguing its premise was correct, but the premise of "white culture" (which does not exist, no debate needed) being functions of "white supremacy" that "suppresses cultural variance" is just nonsensical racist gibberish from the US left. Slowmovintarget has it right - we've seen this sort of thing before except with "the rich" or "capitalism" being used instead of "whiteness".

[slowmovintarget]

These are not the constructs of "white culture." That's merely the straw-man label adopted by the propaganda poster. This is just basic anti-capitalist, collectivist nonsense, with "whiteness" being the scapegoat instead of "the Jews" or "the rich."

[qikInNdOutReply]

Its the only society, that integrated large scale the best of other cultures, leaving behind some of the worst in all cultures. Japanese culture, Indian culture, european cultures it all went into the melting pot and was accepted, aprreciated and cheered on. That happened nowhere else on that scale, except as a remimport from america, and its very insulting to insinunuate that the rejected cultural pieces were rejected out of racism. The truth is, lots of other cultures have horrible bits and pieces, that were washed out of the blending for a very good reason. This very debate, would never be had, in a majority of countries around the globe.

Which makes it all the more incredible, that the "host" operating system culture of the melting pot is attacked and a attempt is made to "regulate" cultural blending. Its a majority vote system, without a need for regulation. The good thing goes in ("Yoga" as a sport, meditation system), the bad stays out (insane cults, backwards religous practices that are abanduned in all religions). Nobody needed to facilitate or control that, but a sparse, neutral stove and a pot.

The people vote, with there feet, there wallets and there actions. Unemployed commisars, race-warriors and revolutionarys are free to form a line for unemployment checks.

[krapp]

European cultures (if we're talking about the US) were never, and still aren't, accepted by indigenous people, much less cheered on. Africans were brought over as slaves and had all connections to their heritage and culture removed, Asians were harassed, sterotyped and made an underclass. Many immigrants had to change their names to "Americanized" versions at Ellis Island, especially Jews.

Yes, a lot of progress has been made in regards to cultural integration in the US, but that progress has been due to attempts to "regulate" cultural blending, rather than in spite of it. The US has had to be forced time and again - often with persistent struggle and at times violence - to live up to its stated ideals. Even today, the most prominent political movement across the US and Europe is explicitly Eurocentric and xenophobic, seeing immigration as a threat to cultural integrity and civil society and multicultural and multiracial integration is at best harmful, at worst impossible.

[rayiner]

Are you American? As a foreigner it seems to me that america is incredibly culturally integrated and open compared to virtually anywhere else. People in my home country wouldn’t put up with a fraction of what Americans put up with.

[philistine]

There’s a difference between the situation on the street so to speak, and the hoarding of power at the political level.

[boppo1]

>claiming that cultural and racial integration is impossible

If mathematics and the recognition of cause-and-effect are white supremacy, then maybe they're right. /s

Seriously, this new "dei" or "crt" rhetoric needs to get shut down hard or it will undo all the progress that has been achieved.

[slowmovintarget]

Attacking mathematics and science is part of the playbook for collectivists. Objective truth is the enemy of propaganda. Propaganda is the means to control belief, which is required to control behavior, which is required to centralize control of economic activity (people's behavior) and redistribute resources.

Therefore the idea of the existence of objective truth (2+2=4) must destroyed and subverted in order for the "goodfact" to be swallowed.

I just finished The Road to Serfdom by F. A. Hayek, and he lays this out fairly well as a strategy of totalitarian regimes, or groups with totalitarian impulses. (Chapter 11, I believe)

[TeeMassive]

> were never, and still aren't, accepted by indigenous people, much less cheered on.

This is simply not true. The natives embraced a lot of aspects of European culture. Nearly all developed métis cultures and deep commercial trade. Most of the initial treaties were ones of friendship and alliances.

Go visit a native museum, they want to preserve their culture, not expunge it from European influence. They hate wokeness and mass immigration too, by the way.

[hackinthebochs]

https://archive.ph/u86Ke

>The framework recommends eight times that teachers use a troubling document, “A Pathway to Equitable Math Instruction: Dismantling Racism in Mathematics Instruction.” This manual claims that teachers addressing students’ mistakes forthrightly is a form of white supremacy. It sets forth indicators of “white supremacy culture in the mathematics classroom,” including a focus on “getting the right answer,” teaching math in a “linear fashion,” requiring students to “show their work” and grading them on demonstrated knowledge of the subject matter. “The concept of mathematics being purely objective is unequivocally false,” the manual explains. “Upholding the idea that there are always right and wrong answers perpetuates ‘objectivity.’ ” Apparently, that’s also racist.

[viraptor]

While others covered the guide part, I just wanted to note some context about punctuality. In case people didn't know, this is actually very culture-dependent. For example in Australia, guides organising meetings with people from indigenous mobs sometimes refer to the meetings as running on "black man's time" . Essentially it means that the community comes first for them so when they have something else to do, it takes priority. The local person may turn up an hour late, or not at all, and it's not seen as lack of respect from their side.

[ZeroGravitas]

Any international business has training for these kind of cultural differences.

For example, when and if you refer to people by their first name or more formally with full titles for example. Whether working long into the night means you're dedicated or inefficient.

These are not right or wrong as such, they're just culture, but if you blunder into the situation assuming that everyone has the same culture, then someone bluntly telling you what's wrong with an idea can seem intentionally aggressive and rude, or someone trying to politely say no might seem vague, or worse, be taken as tacit agreement.

[onos]

Very interesting, cause that’s a reasonable explanation for that alternative norm.

Ultimately, if we’re gonna ask what norms are good we should have some cost function we are trying to optimize and ask for norms that encourage it to go up. Totally reasonable for different people to have different ideas of the good life and get different norms following that.

[barry-cotter]

If you want examples finding them will not be hard. Scroll down to find the infographic from the National Museum of African American History & Culture. It has points on work ethic, future orientation and time that fit fine with what you’re responding to.

https://thefederalist.com/2020/07/15/smithsonian-pushes-raci...