[Jack5500]

Except they have.

A Lufthansa spokesperson has clarified the new rules for the German news site watson: https://www.watson.de/leben/urlaub%20&%20freizeit/879935671-...

It rougly translate to: The device itself is not banned, but has to be shut off during flight. In practice this would mean that you would have to remove the battery from the airtag, since there is no powerswitch.

But I will admit that this seems odd and I think it won't be the last time we've heard about it.

[robbiet480]

That article came out 5 days before the tweet from Ethan Klapper (Senior Aviation Reporter at The Points Guy) [1] referenced in the source article. Lufthansa's latest statement is they are not banned [2].

[1]: https://twitter.com/ethanklapper/status/1578453321546801158 [2]: https://twitter.com/ethanklapper/status/1578571226934611968

[judge2020]

And? That says nothing about whether or not the battery must be removed from the device, which is important due to how much of a hassle that would be.

[NavinF]

It's possible they know that the ICAO regulations on electronics are really silly, but they're too lazy to challenge it directly. It's easier to just dodge the question and let customers do whatever they want. 99% of customers will not research this question and I expect all airlines to continue ignoring those regulations.

[extr]

Yeah, obviously the situation here is that by the letter of the law, you can't have electronics/batteries in the cargo hold. But it's not like they're starting up an Airtags Gestapo to search every bag and throw people in jail. Don't ask don't tell, the more of a big deal people make about this policy the closer it gets to actually being a problem in practice.

[nixcraft]

From Lufthansa Twitter account: "yes this is correct. AirTags are banned in Lufthansa flights." https://twitter.com/lufthansa/status/1578869457140580353

[doc]

Well that didn't last long, I saw the tweet a few minutes ago but now it's been deleted. PR in action?

[smcl]

Chaos

[mikeiz404]

An archived version of the tweet is available here: https://web.archive.org/web/20221009003642/https://twitter.c...

The tweet was deleted on twitter.

[tsimionescu]

As far as I understand there is nothing new. Lithium batteries have always been allowed in checked luggage only if they are inside a completely powered off and reasonably protected device, to avoid the risk of fires. This risk doesn't really apply to such small batteries, but the rules are there regardless of the size of the battery.

[happyopossum]

AirTags don’t use lithium ion batteries.

[libria]

You 2 are talking around each other. You're probably both right about 2 different technologies.

Lithium ions are rechargeable batteries; lithium primaries are non rechargeable, high performance batteries.

Apple air tags use lithium primaries, but I suspect airlines do not care and both kinds are banned (from loaded-in-device-in-baggage flight).

[TheRealPomax]

You may want to tell Apple that, because they explicitly call out that they use lithium batteries over in https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT211670

[mplewis9z]

Lithium =/= Lithium-ion

[ryandrake]

None of this matters. If you search through the article (or the original article that claimed the ban), you will not find the word "lithium". I don't see how this rathole on lithium batteries has anything to do with the article.

[RC_ITR]

Not OP but the point is that Li-ions are rechargeable and therefore more susceptible to shorting/thermal runaway than lithium batteries which are not wired to be rechargeable and therefor less at risk for shorting/thermal runaway.

[tsimionescu]

People who investigated the claims of the article this one is replying to have found that the original source of this claim was a German article where someone called Lufthansa and asked this question. The answer they got from the Lufthansa representative was essentially citing an ICAO rule about devices with lithium batteries - which got twisted in this "Lufthansa doesn't allow AirTags" narrative.

[thombat]

The EU Aviation Safety Agency explicitly treats them as equivalent for safety purposes: https://www.easa.europa.eu/system/files/dfu/Background%20Inf...

[robocat]

Air New Zealand doesn’t allow trackers either - I expect most airlines don’t, so I don’t know why Lufthansa is getting shit here. Air NZ says: “Baggage Trackers (battery powered): Only battery powered baggage trackers that can be turned off i.e. are not in sleep mode, will be accepted in checked baggage. Some devices have an automatic On/Off feature, but not all. Always check the specifications of the device you want to buy as it may not be accepted by us. For those devices that have an auto On/Off feature, the tracking App must not be used in flight.” — https://www.airnewzealand.co.nz/travelling-with-lithium-batt...

FAA specifically allows non-rechargeable small Lithium cells if in equipment in checked baggage. However, the table on the second pages says that small battery/cell spares are not allowed in checked baggage. “Lithium metal batteries (a.k.a.: non-rechargeable lithium, primary lithium). These batteries are often used with cameras and other small personal electronics. Consumer-sized batteries (up to 2 grams of lithium per battery) may be carried. This includes all the typical non-rechargeable lithium batteries used in cameras (AA, AAA, 123, CR123A, CR1, CR2, CRV3, CR22, 2CR5, etc.) as well as the flat round lithium button cells.” — https://www.faa.gov/hazmat/packsafe/resources/media/Airline_...

[tsimionescu]

I didn't say lithium ion, I said lithium - they indeed use a different lithium-based chemistry.

Note that lithium itself is a very volatile metal (it starts burning in contact with water, for example).

[Sporktacular]

Which is why this isn't about the battery fires. It's about the RF of hundreds of devices.

[gambiting]

So why is it fine for literally every single passanger to have bluetooth headphones on during the duration of the flight, but somehow trackers are bad?

[Sporktacular]

1) It's not. They ask people to switch off all transmitters during flights (and later to during takeoff and landing) because of RF emissions. 2) Because you can't turn trackers off, especially when they're in the hold.

Read the initial article that started all this, it even says that reason is because of transmissions.

[spoonalious]

Except they don’t because most have onboard wifi now. And most allow Bluetooth headphones, including Lufthansa:

Lufthansa: Bluetooth headphones are allowed during every part of the flight.

[gbin]

So clearly this is again an airline using a rule as a "proxy" for something else they want.

Like no chewing tobacco... Yeah it is gross but it is probably not a safety issue.

[Sporktacular]

1) The wifi system is EMC certified and tested with the flight instrumentation. Dozens of different consumer devices are not.

2) Lufthansa "allows it during the entire flight without restriction – even during take-off and landing unless the crew instruct otherwise"(https://bluetoothtechworld.com/can-i-use-bluetooth-headphone...). In other words, unless you're told to turn it off in the event of some problem, which is something you can't do when it's in the luggage hold of the aircraft.

Again, the articles specifies this is about EMC.

[AlfeG]

All airline I've been travel, disable WiFi during takeoff and landing.

[reaperducer]

It's not. They ask people to switch off all transmitters during flights (and later to during takeoff and landing) because of RF emissions.

I think that's a little outdated.

I flew a few times a few months ago, and the passengers were repeatedly encouraged to hook up to the plane's wifi as soon as we boarded. No announcements were made about turning devices off. Not even during take-off or landing. I'm one of those people who pays attention to the announcements and reads the safety cards every time, so I was surprised.

I think the airlines think it's safer to have excitable people turned into gadget zombies during the flight to make the time pass faster and keep them from getting rowdy. The same function that the in-flight movie, drink, and meal used to serve before those were all value engineered away.

[mbreese]

> passengers were repeatedly encouraged to hook up to the plane's wifi as soon as we boarded

I think this is to make sure that you have it setup early so any tech support can be handled early and to make sure you can download the airline app to your phone if needed. The aircrew can enable/disable the wifi at will. Next time look to see if it is working at takeoff. I’m honestly not sure if it will be or not, but it used to be a switch in the cabin.

[zwily]

They don’t ask you to turn off all radios during takeoff/landing anymore. Just cellular.

[OJFord]

And some large percentage doesn't bother and it's absolutely fine.

[tsimionescu]

Here [0] is the FAA site about lithium battery powered devices in checked-in baggage. The ICAO has the same rule, but I haven't found a similarly concise statement.

> Devices containing lithium metal batteries or lithium ion batteries, including – but not limited to – smartphones, tablets, cameras and laptops, should be kept in carry-on baggage. If these devices are packed in checked baggage, they should be turned completely off, protected from accidental activation and packed so they are protected from damage. [emphasis mine]

[0] https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/lithium-batteries-baggage

[XorNot]

LOL. This is about Lufthansa getting dragged in the media about their baggage handling screw ups and ongoing lying to customers about it while holding their luggage for months.

[tsimionescu]

It is not - it is in fact a nothing burger. The original claim was based on a German article where someone called Lufthansa and asked if they can put AirTags in their checked-in luggage, and the Lufthansa representative answered with the existing regulation about Lithium (metal or ion) battery devices, which says they are accepted if they are completely powered off.

That's it - no one is enforcing this regulation in practice, especially not for AirTags or other small devices.

[jbverschoor]

The BLE advertisement packet is max 270 bytes.

AirTags send these out once per second when the owner is near, otherwise once every 2 seconds.

Assume 500 passengers on a 747, and everyone has an AirTag, and let's assume worstcase, the tags are in-range:

500 pax * 270 = 135kbyte, or 1MBit/second of radio traffic. The equivalent of 4 bluetooth headphones.

This isn't about RF. This is about luggage claims. In the EU, consumers are heavily protected against delays, canceled flights, and lost luggage.

[Izikiel43]

Is the problem with batteries or lithium batteries?

AirTags have non lithium batteries

[Youden]

Lithium metal (e.g. coin cells) or Lithium-ion (e.g. smartphones).

Both - when installed in a device - can be transported in checked luggage though: https://www.iata.org/contentassets/05e6d8742b0047259bf3a700b...

IATA actually has a document specifically addressing tracking devices: https://www.iata.org/contentassets/05e6d8742b0047259bf3a700b...

My reading of that document indicates that an AirTag should be fine, as low-powered wireless communication is allowed (page 9, item 3).

[pacificmint]

AirTags use CR2032 batteries which are, in fact, lithium batteries.

They are lithium primary cells though, not lithium ion cells, which are usually what is banned.

[tsimionescu]

There is no distinction between the two in terms of regulations (all the ones I've seen are explicitly calling both lithium ion and lithium metal batteries).

[fortran77]

Stop spreading misinformation:

>[T]he CR2032 battery is a Lithium-manganese dioxide battery (LiMn02). It is composed of a Mn02 cathode and a lithium anode. The device is specified for a 225 milliamp hours (mAh) and typically operates over a temperature range of –20 ºC to +70 ºC.

You will find some alkaline versions available from some vendors, but it's not the norm.

Now there may be a chance that Lufthansa didn't mean to include all types of lithium cells or batteries, but the vague wording doesn't seem to suggest that.

[tsimionescu]

Lithium batteries of any kind have the same regulations in aviation. Here[0] is a link from the US FAA, but you'll find similar at ICAO or any other civil aviation authorities.

[0] https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/lithium-batteries-baggage

[layer8]

There are no new rules. Lufthansa is merely citing the ICAO regulations that have been in effect since 2017: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33128614

[monksy]

It's only an odd statement because their employees created this shit storm and the organization is trying save face with the employees and correct the statement.

Don't expect for the service side of LH to turn their back on rejecting baggage because it has an airtag.

[Telemakhos]

Yeah, this article generated a lot of technical discussion about the chemical composition of batteries and the technicalities of RF and IATA regs, because this is a site for the technically minded—but the real story here is about corporate communication.

[m-p-3]

Or grant the owner the ability to temporarily stop an AirTag from broadcasting its signal for a specified amount of time.

Do it right before your luggage is checked in up until the estimated time of arrival.

[layer8]

The problem is not (only?) the broadcasting. The problem is the lithium battery used in a non-switched-off device.

[m-p-3]

Has a CR2032 ever been the cause of an actual fire?

[layer8]

Maybe not (who knows), but the relevant aircraft transport regulations apply to all types of lithium-based batteries.

[nonethewiser]

Not really. 2032's power most watches. There are far more watches than air tags. Why didn't they ban them?

[layer8]

They (Lufthansa) didn’t ban AirTags. When asked about whether AirTags are allowed in checked luggage, they cited the pertinent ICAO regulations. They might do the same when asked about powered-on watches with lithium batteries in checked luggage.

[Manuel_D]

Would it be okay to put it in a metal box forming a faraday cage? I could seriously see a demand for such a product if they follow through on this ban.

[brewdad]

What would be the point of putting an AirTag in your luggage if you prevent it from communicating with the outside world? Toss the Tag in your carry-on if you want it at your destination.

[amelius]

The box could open itself after landing.

[koolba]

A timer attached to a mechanical device in your luggage better damn well be detected by those X-ray machine.

[fzzzy]

What would be the point of that? It wouldn't work any more.

[dheera]

And this is why Airtags shouldn't have speakers.

[JadeNB]

How are speakers related to the ban, which tsimionescu suggests (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33135627) is just related to the Li battery problem?

[dheera]

If you don't have speakers you can still have the airtags and they wouldn't be able to tell if they are on or off.

In their default state, they make annoying sounds every time the bag is moved, so they would be able to tell.

[rhacker]

So they banned your cell phone too? Last I recall you can take those on a plane powered off too.

[mfkp]

Lithium batteries with you in the cabin have different rules than lithium batteries inside checked luggage.

Also cell phones don't need to be powered off while inside the cabin.

[rockemsockem]

Air tags don't use lithium batteries. They use the big, flat, circular batteries that you have to replace.

[mfkp]

Airtags use a CR2032 lithium battery: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT211670

The FAA specifies both lithium ion and lithium metal batteries need to be in carry-on bags only, not checked: https://www.faa.gov/hazmat/packsafe/more_info/?hazmat=7

[nonethewiser]

So they dont let you check watches?

[bobviolier]

It's about checked-in luggage, not what you take with you in the cabin.

[ohbtvz]

I don't get your comment. You say they banned them, then immediately explain that they're not banned, you just have to turn them off - just like every single electronic device in checked in luggage. Can you elaborate on this contradiction?