No they did not. Just one of many incorrect translations by Western Indologists. Note that I am being very polite in calling it "incorrect translations" as it borders malice.
In fact, in the Mahabharata itself, while Lord Krishna addresses the dead Parikshit (when he was killed by the Brahmastra while being in the womb of Uttara) he states that there has never been a conflict/misunderstanding between himself and Arjuna (also called Vijaya). Forget a fight. He then grants life to Parikshit by saying the following words (Sanskrit transliteration and English translation from Kisar Mohan Ganguli's Mahabharata):
"Having sat up, the daughter of the king of the Matsyas, summoning her patience, joined her hands in reverence and touched the earth with her head for saluting Kesava of eyes like the petals of the lotus. That foremost of beings, hearing those heart-rending lamentations of hers, touched water and withdrew the (force of the) Brahma-weapon. That hero of unfading glory, belonging to the race of the Dasarhas, promised to give the child his life. Then he of pure soul, said these words in the hearing of the whole universe,--'O Uttara, I never utter an untruth.
My words will prove true. I shall revive this child in the presence of all creatures. Never before have I uttered an untruth even in jest. Never have I turned back from battle. (By the merit of those acts) let this child revive! As righteousness is dear to me, as Brahmanas are specially dear to me, (by the merit of that disposition of mine) let Abhimanyu's son, who is born dead, revive! Never hath a misunderstanding arisen between me and my friend Vijaya. Let this dead child revive by that truth! As truth and righteousness are always established in me, let this dead child of Abhimanyu revive (by the merit of these)! As Kansa and Kesi have been righteously slain by me, let this child revive today by that truth!' After these words were uttered by Vasudeva, that child, O foremost one of Bharata's race, became animate and began gradually to move, O monarch."
> User name checks out. :) Joking aside, thank you for the correction.
Haha no issues!
> I did learn that there's a 19th-century play called Gayopakhyanam, where they almost fight.
Yes there are many Sthala Puranas that have their own variations/additions to the main storyline. Which is why we stick to the oldest manuscripts that are available as we do not know if/when distortions happened as this story spans multiple thousands of years.
We have sadly also lost scriptures to invasions. Especially with the burning of Nalanda University (by Muhammad Bakhtiyar Khalji: by some estimates, 9 million scriptures were destroyed) and Takshashila University (by Persians, Greeks, Parthians, Hephthalites, Shakas and Kushanas) though Alexander and future Greeks revived the University again in partnership with Chandragupta Maurya. Hepthalites were most destructive of the lot. Both these Universities contained tomes of Dharmic scriptures/manuscripts (both Buddhist and Hindu).
Fascinating to learn about Nalanda and Takshashila University.
About the latter ("considered to be one of the earliest universities in the world") and the revival of the university - I recently started reading a book called, The Shape of Ancient Thought: Comparative Studies in Greek and Indian Philosophies. I'm interested in learning about the influence of Buddhism on Greek (and later European) philosophy. I know almost nothing about the history of India, so it's been a fun educational journey.
The name of Chandragupta Maurya I hadn't heard before, but I see he is an important historical figure, the grandfather of Ashoka. And they're said to be from the Shakya family from which Gautama Buddha descended.
I've enjoyed your other thoughtful comments in this thread, even the controversial one criticising the "deliberately mistranslated" scriptures. I don't know the truth of the matter, but perhaps the translators simply lacked understanding? And I can see that some words are impossible to translate, with so much meaning lost or wrongly transformed in the process.
Anyway, thanks for sharing your knowledge and perspective. Especially this comment ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32929993 ) was very thought-provoking, one of my favorite comments ever on this forum.
> I know almost nothing about the history of India, so it's been a fun educational journey.
As another commenter pointed out, if you want to know the history of India, there is no better scripture than the Mahabharata. Indians learn through stories about our Ancient Epics. That is the only thread that binds us to everything in the Civilization. Mahabharata is the core of it. As a kid, I was fascinated by the Mahabharata serial (old 1990s serial which is an abridged version of the actual scripture). It has English subtitles as well: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLa6CHPhFNfadNcnVZRXa6...
I have a feeling you'll enjoy it. :)
Once you know Mahabharata, you'll get really familiar with the lingo/jargon/terms that are commonly used in Dharmic scriptures. Then it becomes really easy to connect with the rest of your study of the Ancient Indian Civilization.
Oh joy, I started watching the Mahabharata series you recommended.
Already I love the music, sitar and singing; how the title is in Sanskrit, English, and Arabic scripts; and how it starts with Time itself telling the story.
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In another comment you mentioned Hiraṇyagarbha, or Brahmanda. What a beautiful concept that is. I've heard about the Cosmic Egg in other cultures, particularly in the Greek Orphic tradition.
What started my journey of curiosity about Greek and Indian cultural exchange, is that I grew up in Japan (it's literally my motherland) - and in Japanese temples, at the entrance are commonly seen two lions (stone statues) guarding the sacred space. I read that this symbolism came from ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, Persia, via India to China and reached Japan.
The lions are named "A" and "Un", corresponding to Aum, अहूँ.
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By the way, would you mind if I wrote you an email? I'm enjoying our conversation, and have some philosophical questions. I didn't want to post my address here, to connect this account with my real-life identity, so I won't ask for yours - but maybe there's a temporary way to exchange info and get in touch, or a private way to give you my email (or vice versa)?
One thing I was curious to ask, about your thoughts on the differences and similarities between Hinduism and Buddhism. I imagine that's a big topic, haha.
> About the latter ("considered to be one of the earliest universities in the world") and the revival of the university - I recently started reading a book called, The Shape of Ancient Thought: Comparative Studies in Greek and Indian Philosophies. I'm interested in learning about the influence of Buddhism on Greek (and later European) philosophy.
Another fact: Emperor Chandragupta Maurya studied in this University under the tutelage of his teacher, Acharya Chanakya. Chanakya raises this boy (not born into Royal Lineage) and teaches him everything: politics, philosophy, economics, administration and handling weapons. Turns him into a Warrior. He eventually raises a formidable Army and attacks the Nanda Empire to oust Emperor Dhana Nanda (who was at that time extremely cruel. Alexander's Army mutinied at Beas (Hyphasis River) against attacking the Nanda Empire primarily because they heard about the barbarity of the Nandas and the vast Army that they commanded). Once Chandragupta defeats Dhana Nanda, he forms the Mauryan Empire and appoints Chanakya as the Prime Minister.
> About the latter ("considered to be one of the earliest universities in the world") and the revival of the university - I recently started reading a book called, The Shape of Ancient Thought: Comparative Studies in Greek and Indian Philosophies. I'm interested in learning about the influence of Buddhism on Greek (and later European) philosophy. I know almost nothing about the history of India, so it's been a fun educational journey.
There is a lot of interconnect between Ancient Greek and Ancient Indian civilizations. Even when it comes to Demigods we have lots of similarities. Mostly because we interacted a lot (in spite of the Wars that we fought with each other, we eventually began to respect each others Civilizations more deeply). But with the fall of these Ancient Civilizations much of that relations that were built was lost. In a way, Dharmic Religions are the oldest surviving Religions... or dare I say oldest surviving Ancient Civilizations.
One of my biggest gripes with Western Indologists is that they classified Sanatan Dharma/Hinduism as Polytheist. Which is actually far from the Truth. We have only 1 God (the Brahman of the Vedas — the Supreme Being) with many Demigods (Devatas). Now depending on the school of Vedanta one follows, there are multiple interpretations of what God is (is God an independent entity — Tattvavada/Dvaita, we are all part of one God — Vishishtadvaita or I am God — Advaita). Yet all of it just boils down to either Monism or Monotheism. Not Polytheism. But as usual, the latter has stuck on due to wrong translations and will take a long time for it to be fixed.
Buddhism and Jainism on the other hand fall under Charvaka Philosophy. Charvakas deny the Supremacy of the Vedas as they believe in empirical evidence, direct perception alone. So even though we all come under the same umbrella term of "Dharmic Religions" there is a fundamental difference between both, which goes by the terminologies: Astika (Vedic) and Nastika (non-Vedic).
> The name of Chandragupta Maurya I hadn't heard before, but I see he is an important historical figure, the grandfather of Ashoka. And they're said to be from the Shakya family from which Gautama Buddha descended.
Yes you are right. Chandragupta Maurya was the Emperor of Ancient India and the founder of the Mauryan Empire. Emperor Ashoka is his descendent.
> I don't know the truth of the matter, but perhaps the translators simply lacked understanding?
This is a long story but it ties heavily to Evalengelical Christian Missionaries and providing them a fodder by misinterpreting many of the scriptures incorrectly (many Missionaries here use these translated scriptures to fool the local populace). It then becomes really easy to coax local populace in India (typically the lower castes), who due to various unfortunate circumstances (including discrimination they were subjected to in the past by upper castes, coupled with their own economic conditions), weren't versed in Sanskrit, to convert to Christianity or other Abrahamic Religions.
I have no issues with people converting as that is their individual preference/right but I don't want wrongly translated scriptures to be used as fodder for such conversions. I am more worried about these translations gaining a life of its own and cementing itself as the true translations winning over actual translations that was passed down through generations by our Ancestors. I want to preserve this culture/tradition as I feel it holds value to people on Earth and for future generations to research/introspect/learn from. Irrespective of whether they find value in it or not. Irrespective of whether it is perfect, faulty or downright nonsense. It should be looked at as preservation of Ancient Culture/Traditions and not be lost in the annals of Time.
Also, wrong translations builds animosity between groups. People here are converting not out of some profound wisdom or philosophical enlightenment but out of a hatred for the Religion they belonged to. This sort of brainwashing is going on every single day in India.
Very few who bothered to do their own independent research and figure out that the translations are wrong reconvert back.
This is not healthy for a society IMHO. Especially if conversions are forced or happen out of misinformation/animosity, it just ends up creating bad blood, regrets (once you realize you have been taken for a ride) and even divisiveness leading to communal rifts.
So I see it as my moral duty to set things right when I see wrong translations. Even if the World is against me. And I know I am not alone in this endeavour.
> Very few who bothered to do their own independent research and figure out that the translations are wrong reconvert back.
To whom are Dharmic religions bleeding followers? Other religions or ireligion? Is conversion happening between the Dharmic religions? Any idea about percentages related to conversions?
In fact, in the Mahabharata itself, while Lord Krishna addresses the dead Parikshit (when he was killed by the Brahmastra while being in the womb of Uttara) he states that there has never been a conflict/misunderstanding between himself and Arjuna (also called Vijaya). Forget a fight. He then grants life to Parikshit by saying the following words (Sanskrit transliteration and English translation from Kisar Mohan Ganguli's Mahabharata):
yathA me dayito dharmo brAhmaNAshcha visheShataH | abhimanyoH suto jAto mRRito jIvatvayaM tathA || 20||
yathAhaM nAbhijAnAmi vijayena kadAchana | virodhaM tena satyena mRRito jIvatvayaM shishuH || 21||
yathA satyaM cha dharmashcha mayi nityaM pratiShThitau | tathA mRRitaH shishurayaM jIvatAmabhimanyujaH || 22||
"Having sat up, the daughter of the king of the Matsyas, summoning her patience, joined her hands in reverence and touched the earth with her head for saluting Kesava of eyes like the petals of the lotus. That foremost of beings, hearing those heart-rending lamentations of hers, touched water and withdrew the (force of the) Brahma-weapon. That hero of unfading glory, belonging to the race of the Dasarhas, promised to give the child his life. Then he of pure soul, said these words in the hearing of the whole universe,--'O Uttara, I never utter an untruth.
My words will prove true. I shall revive this child in the presence of all creatures. Never before have I uttered an untruth even in jest. Never have I turned back from battle. (By the merit of those acts) let this child revive! As righteousness is dear to me, as Brahmanas are specially dear to me, (by the merit of that disposition of mine) let Abhimanyu's son, who is born dead, revive! Never hath a misunderstanding arisen between me and my friend Vijaya. Let this dead child revive by that truth! As truth and righteousness are always established in me, let this dead child of Abhimanyu revive (by the merit of these)! As Kansa and Kesi have been righteously slain by me, let this child revive today by that truth!' After these words were uttered by Vasudeva, that child, O foremost one of Bharata's race, became animate and began gradually to move, O monarch."
[1]: https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m14/m14069.htm