Ask HN: What to do when getting pushed out of a job?

[pigsinzen]

I have every reason to believe I am being pushed out of my salary role (USA). The writing is on the wall, management is putting together a case and starting to use "HR Speak" in Slack and Email. They point to performance but I've been in the industry for a long time and believe this is personal or there are other reasons at play.

I have never been fired before. I've gone through some coping stages already -- anxiety, depression and fear. Now, I believe I am starting to embrace it as I cannot control it and am obviously unwanted on this team. Sometimes I wish they would just fire me and get it over with.

I could move into another full-time role at a different company but hope to work for myself one day. I don't want to join a new company and leave soon after -- they don't deserve that treatment.

I do not have a lot of money saved (not good!). In fact, I will probably owe them a big chunk of the sign-on bonus (dumb mistake on my end). I have no idea about unemployment or under what circumstances one can collect.

If you've been fired, or saw it coming:

  - What was your experience?
  - Is there anything you wish you would have done differently? 
  - Any suggestions? 
  - Is there any remedy for the dread that keeps you up at night?
  - Did you have family to support and come out the other end okay? 
  - How do you not laugh (in agony, of course) at the sudden change when management starts talking like they work Customer Service and have to pretend to be nice?
  - Do I keep this role (less than 1 year) on my resume for future applications?

I'm trying to stay positive but this is actually very stressful to experience and has been boiling much longer than I should have let it.

(edit: list formatting)

[tacostakohashi]

I have been laid off / pushed out twice and counting.

Obvious practical things... don't leave much at your desk/at the office, make sure you have copies of important stuff (W-2s, paystubs, personal documents, contact information, etc) on your own devices. Depending on the company... they might do something like phone you and ask you to come to a meeting room, then do it there and not let you go back to your desk, so be ready for that. Do this all the time at any job and be ready, not just when you feel things are going bad.

Focus on updating your CV, building relationships and skills that will work outside the company.

Try to salvage things with your employer to the extent possible. This might mean just agreeing that it wasn't a good fit, but avoiding a drama with them, and they could still be a reference and confirm that you worked there from date X - date Y, confirm some projects you worked on, etc.

If you do get laid off, the company will generally offer you X week's severance pay, and health insurance until the end of the month, etc... in exchange for signing an agreement not to sue them for anything, non disparagement, etc. You might be able to negotiate those terms a bit, so you could try for more money, less money but more health insurance, etc... so think about what would be best.

Most people (myself included) look back and say it is a positive thing, it is better to be let go and find something better than continue in a crappy situation that will never get better. Be prepared, try to remember that, and avoid an emotional response or giving into anxiety, shock, etc.

[logicalmonster]

1) Don't feel bad about this. The smartest and most capable people in the world have been fired from jobs before.

2) Start covering your ass. Document everything they've complained about. If they said you're shipping out orders late or something, send an email noting you're shipping every single order out on time.

3) Start looking for a job. If you're lucky, you can find an increase in wages.

4) If you feel it's warranted, it probably doesn't hurt to try and salvage the relationship if you think it's in your best interest and there's still a chance to do so.

5) Don't get tricked into quitting somehow and ruin your opportunity to get unemployment.

[tra3]

Sorry you're going through this, it's a tough spot to be in.

I have reframed my approach to employment in the past several years after going through something similar.

At the very core, your relationship with your employer is a business arrangement. You provide a service and your employer pays for it. There might be more to it, like if you have friendships with your teammates, etc. Ultimately though, once your perceived cost exceeds the perceived value you become a liability to the company and they will get rid of you.

I have taken that very personally in the past. What changed my perspective is when I started consulting. I was no longer me, but a "business entity". The relationship then reflected the performance of the business entity, not me as individual. I hope that makes sense. Another take is, what happens when two corporations terminate their contracts? Would you feel bad about that?

This is a long winded way of saying that it's a business relationship and it goes both ways.

- Don't quit because you should be able to collect unemployment.

- Do look for a full time work and if you decide to quit after, just quit. Where I live it's customary to give 2 weeks notice, but not legally required.

[xchip]

You will be out of there anyway, so: - Cold blood

- Enjoy this chapter of your life, as who watches a horror movie.

- Take it as a personal growth opportunity, see what is in there for you to learn.

- Respond with kindness all the time, even if they provoke you. That will way they will regret anything they do, also others colleagues might resent what your managers are doing to you.

- learn as much as you can

- look for a new job.

[gregjor]

Start looking for a new job. Worrying and over-analyzing and preparing for trauma is just going to paralyze you. Jobs don’t always work out for any number of reasons.

Have you tried talking to your manager about your performance and future at the company? If the company wants to get rid of you they can just fire you, dragging it out as you describe doesn’t make much sense with at-will employment.

[pigsinzen]

> Have you tried talking to your manager about your performance and future at the company?

I did. I go well out of my way (and comfort zone) to make very open conversations with him. I can't get any answers or feedback at all related to my future. He says my performance is not meeting his expectations and points to multiple examples -- subjective but he rationalizes and sells it well.

I believe he wants to get rid of me but needs corporate buy-in to make it happen. I've never been a manager before so I could be wrong.

[Nextgrid]

> I can't get any answers or feedback at all related to my future

> He says my performance is not meeting his expectations

You did get your answer - he wants you out. Performance is most likely an excuse (if he legitimately had issues with your performance but had otherwise no beef with you, he'd give you specific & actionable feedback on how to improve), but either way the point is that your future at that company doesn't exist and you need to plan your next move now.

[gregjor]

Yeah, if the manager isn’t giving you a specific plan and goals to improve performance then you should move on.

It’s hard to know for sure but I would interpret what you describe as the manager building a case for dismissal with cause. Since the company can let you go without cause at any time they are doing this either to save on unemployment benefits or as a precaution against a lawsuit. The manager is not telling you anything because he’s made the decision and now just has to avoid HR legal troubles.

Regardless of the reasons or corporate maneuvering you should focus your efforts on moving on. If you can’t make your current situation better then any time and worry you give to it is wasted. It’s easier to get another job while you’re employed so take advantage of the apparently slow process at your current job.

[STLCajun]

Went through this a few years ago. My wife and I were having some hard times, and my marriage was right on the verge of falling apart. It affected everything in my life, and I just lost all focus for a few months. My performance sagged, projects fell behind. I knew this, and actually talked to my direct manager, and he said it wasn't a problem... at least until upper management realized and it became a problem. I got let go, and honest to god, it was probably one of the best things that happened to me. The work stress that I'd been feeling for months lifted, I was able to spend a little while focusing on my marriage (still together happily). I had many interviews, and was pretty much given the choice of the jobs I wanted. Within a month, I was fully employed and much happier with my new gig.

As for what I'd do differently, I would have tried to have more in savings. Would have been nice to have something to fall back on. Especially since at the time my wife was going through a career change as well.

The dread... I'm not sure what worried me more: my career failing, or my marriage failing. I think it was mostly the latter, and it felt I could do nothing right. Career-wise, I knew the writing was on the wall, I just tried keeping my chin up until I found myself hopelessly underwater and being flushed out. After that... things just got better. Probably not the norm, but it was in my case.

No real family support. My wife and I were both unemployed at the same time, and we were considered the safety net for everyone else in the family. We just cut the budget to pure necessities, and held on for dear life. Thankfully, it was a very short ride, and both of us found employment in weeks, and not months or years.

As for the change in management attitude, the only person I really talked to was my direct manager. I got small hints in the days before it happened that something was up, but no one told me outright, or acted any differently. The day of, I was just pulled into a room and told my services were no longer needed.

As for keeping the role on the resume, I'd say absolutely. You're going to get more questions about a "blank" than you will about a short gig.

Hope this helps, and good luck on your future endeavours!

[groffee]

> I don't want to join a new company and leave soon after -- they don't deserve that treatment

You're projecting your own feelings onto the situation, there's nothing wrong with bailing on a company, you don't owe them anything.

You need to prioritize your own family's well-being over some random company's 'feelings'.

Just take whatever vacation/sick days you have and look for another job. Back pain is one condition you can get a doctors note for without any 'evidence'.

> I will probably owe them a big chunk of the sign-on bonus (dumb mistake on my end)

Lawyer up.

My own experience when I was 'pushed out' was I was getting micro-managed to a stupid degree by someone who didn't understand my job, they also tried to get me to fire some of my staff, when I told my staff (mistake!) management denied it making me look like a complete a*hole, eventually I got suspended and just didn't go back.

I walked into a better job, the same week, literally just up the road from where I was. Trust it will all work out.

[aaws11]

  - What was your experience?
  I was fired after my toxic boss discovered I was confident enough to interview at FAANG's, after a huge war scene of over expectations (from my manager) and under delivery, obviously (from my side) during my initial career days.
  - Is there anything you wish you would have done differently? 
  always have a good runway(savings) and / or a 100% assurance that there are 1000s of orgs out there willing to give you better work experience / satisfaction and pays than the current one.
  - Any suggestions? 
  Just look out for a new job. stay happy, calm enjoy life.
  - Is there any remedy for the dread that keeps you up at night?
  understand that (apart from rare life and death situations), nothing is really as horrific as it looks like. Always be sure that there will come a time that you'll laugh at your dreads today. Just like you laugh at your childhood dreads today. and most of all, learn to be happy (have a no fucks given attitude, most people have problems) and it's good to have some kind of a meditation practice going on. the key is to directly reach "Acceptance" instead of traversing through all 5 stages of grief aka coping mechanisms.
  - Did you have family to support and come out the other end okay? 
  financially yes but emotionally no. their so called "support" had the potential to destroy all the 'nothing-can-touch-me-there-are-1000s-of-orgs-out-there-lol-fire-me-all-you-want' mindset.
  - How do you not laugh (in agony, of course) at the sudden change when management starts talking like they work Customer Service and have to pretend to be nice?
  you can never control other's reactions. you can only be aware, and controlled of how YOU respond. I would suggest you be 'no-fucks-given' to anything and everything, given that this is no longer a company you'll be working for.
  - Do I keep this role (less than 1 year) on my resume for future applications?
  depends on how important this role played on your career. did it make a huge difference worth flexing when asked about?

Wish you all the best! Lots of love.

[sp332]

If you quit, you won't be able to collect unemployment. If they try to make a case that you were let go "for cause", then you will have to fight that to get unemployment. Start documenting everything with timestamps in a place they don't control.

[yakak]

You don't have a lot of money saved, want to work for yourself some day and are concerned about how things look on your resume.

This is not so consistent, you sound a lot like me when I was trying to cope with anxiety over the process of getting a new job in an industry that can seem very unfamiliar if you've been working in one employer for a bit.

My advice: Think of the best opportunities you've seen over the last few years and then go and write them a cover letter that shows you are taking them seriously.

You may decide to start something on your own or they may have financial problems in a changing economy and lay you off.. Those are not reasons for inaction.

[pigsinzen]

> This is not so consistent, you sound a lot like me when I was trying to cope with [...] getting a new job in an industry

I really appreciate the advice! This doesn't match my situation but I have known others in the position you mention and maybe they will stumble across it one day.

A valid point on the inconstancy :) I hoped I had quite a bit more time to save money while working at my current role. I am concerned with my resume because I need to fall back on it if self-employment doesn't pan out.

[treis]

I actually managed to get myself off a PIP and then quit like a week later when my new offer came through.

(1) IMHO there's no coming back from a PIP. It's going to follow you around and derail future raises and promotions. It's theoretically possible to transfer teams and eventually put it behind you but you're going to at least miss out on some salary increase. Start looking and quit as soon as you find something.

(2) Be the most positive person you can be. You're grateful for the opportunity to improve and gosh don't you love working for [Company]. You're super duper sure that you're capable of performing to level and with your manager's guidance you'll get there and other such bullshit.

(3) Fight back on Slack/Email with your own case. If they say you're not filling out your TPS report right then shoot an e-mail to your manager saying "I filled out my TPS report. Per previous conversations I didn't fill out section Z correctly. Can you double check this one and see if it meets expectations?". Make them generate a paper trail saying you're doing your job.

(4) It sucks but keep telling yourself that this too will pass. At some point either you'll get fired or quit. Like the soldiers say "Accept that you're already dead and things get easier". Accept that your time at this company is coming to an end and it will be easier to operate. For me it became almost like a game of bullshit vs bullshit and there's always at least a little bit of fun in any game.

[idoh]

Hey, sorry this is happening to you. I've been there, and it is no fun. Probably time to start looking for something new. Maybe it says something about you, maybe not. I've seen people who change managers or companies and really blossom, so it can be about fit.

In any case, reading between the lines it sounds like you've worked at places before, so just have confidence in your skills and move boldly and confidently into the future. If you can't do that, just fake the confidence vibe as much as possible.

[mlr22]

Sorry to hear that. I am going through the same too. (Its slightly different in my case. Not only me, but a few other senior colleagues are getting pushed out. It doesn't stop here. My manager is getting pushed out by the skip level. The skip level by his manger and it goes up several levels. Very strange situation to be in) It does hurt, particularly if one is a top performer. I have stopped caring about it now. I am trying to do the bare minimum and learn a few technologies. Eventually I want to start something on my own. I know it's easier said than done.

My advice is, don't worry about it. These days, it's quite common in the industry. Start looking for a job. It's always a good idea to search when you are employed. Drop the idea of starting your own company, unless you are in a position to live off your net worth. Wish you the best. You will do well.

[nickd2001]

I'd advise, do NOT take it personally, instead mentally detach and look for a new job, and when you land the new job, request a week or two gap before you start , then go do something nice, road trip or something in that time. If you had money saved up, I'd be tempted to stick it out but without savings you need to get another job. Personally I got laid off a couple of times 20 yrs apart, company financial problems in both cases. In both cases I got a pay rise and a nice break between jobs as result. ;). A good long-term lesson you might learn from this is be frugal e:g learn cheap cookery, drive a car you can buy out-right not borrow for, and build some savings, that way the whole thing is less stressful.

[jstx1]

> The writing is on the wall, management is putting together a case and starting to use "HR Speak" in Slack and Email.

What does that mean more specifically? For some people it's very easy to be paranoid about getting fired when there's nothing really going on.

[matheist]

> In fact, I will probably owe them a big chunk of the sign-on bonus (dumb mistake on my end).

Just want to register my surprise that you'd owe a chunk of your signing bonus if they fire you.

You know your situation best, and maybe that's what you're alluding to with the "dumb mistake", but my understanding of typical signing bonuses, they'd only get clawed back in event of employee-initiated resignation, not typically if employer terminates.

Writing it here in the off chance that it's helpful to you (or to someone else negotiating a signing bonus elsewhere).

[Meph504]

Many are structured around "x time period of continuous employment" leaving the severing of the relationship vague.

[cpach]

I would make a list of the top 10 or 20 companies that you are interested in working for. Then start to investigate if you have any connections in said companies and reach out to them.

Starting your own business is also a good idea, but in that case you need to think about how much runway you would need.

I would keep the role on the CV. If it comes up, you can just say, “during my time at company Foo I did X, Y and Z”. It’s easier to do that than to explain the whole in the CV if you leave it out.

[_8j50]

Unless you've been switching jobs every 1-2years recently I recommend jumping ship or finding another team to switch to. If you plan on starting a business in less than a year I understand your hesitation but you said you don't have a lot of money saved. If not, go for it and move on.

[flippinburgers]

You don't want to join a new company and then leave so soon after? I think you are making a rather large assumption there. I would get a new job and just see what the future actually brings if I were you.

[throwaway0asd]

When you have a backup plan everything is optional and potentially disposable. For me I have a secondary employer that could easily become the primary employer with very little loss in compensation.

[joshxyz]

Kinda same as being pushed out of a relationship, yes im talking about romantic relationships where you thought everything clicked, it sucks.

[vlod]

As you realize, your job is done and they're going through the options to get you out.

> Sometimes I wish they would just fire me and get it over with.

Being reactive is leaving putting your future in other peoples hands. As others are saying, be pro-active.

> I do not have a lot of money saved (not good!)...

You're not in a good position. Get a new job and start saving to protect yourself going forward. You need at LEAST 6 months of saving.

Don't bother waiting for unemployment (there's a chance you won't get it so don't rely on it). Start the rebuild immediately.

>hope to work for myself one day

Sure, but sometimes it takes a bit of time to get things going and you really need a savings buffer.

TLDR: Don't stay at this company that doesn't appreciate you. Onwards!

[vlod]

DOH

^^ EDIT: NOT being reactive in leaving, is putting your future in other peoples hands. As others are saying, be pro-active.

[A4ET8a8uTh0]

<What was your experience?

Mine was a little unusual. My manager at the time started to work really hard to push me out. It was obvious and not subtle at all. I started looking around, but the market was what it was so I was forced to endure the abuse for much longer than a reasonable person should. And it was a genuine, consistent, daily dose of abuse. I still remember coming back home angry and having to use the punching bag downstairs and not being able to sleep well for the longest time.

And here is where my story gets a little weird. I was certain any day will be my last day, but in her zeal to make my environment unbearable, the manager also made the environment of other employees more difficult and at one point she pushed something a little too far and one person quit that very day. Fireworks ensued. HR was alerted, because apparently it was not first such incident, but ultimately, as expected from HR, nothing happened. The place was a metaphorical sweatshop and had, as I later learned, a certain reputation that I failed to discover during my interviews so not many people wanted to be a replacement for the person, who quit. This meant I had time until they found someone new.

As luck would have it, I found something few weeks after. I quit in the nicest way possible.

<Is there anything you wish you would have done differently?

I wish I did not worry as much. Looking back, it feels silly that I cared so much about this tiny blip in my story.

<Any suggestions?

To be honest, a lot of it was already mentioned by others ( savings is likely a priority in case things don't work out right away, don't quit as it prevents you from even a chance for unemployment benefits, document everything -- I wrote fucking daily diary to cover my ass so if it comes to challenging their 'for cause', I have ammo ready ), but I will add one more that I wish I knew before this ordeal:

Right attitude helps a lot. Knowing things are going to be, eventually, ok helps. And I assure you, things eventually do work out. The annoying part is that the first time you go through this, it is hard not to worry. After all, there are so many different ways things can go wrong. But worrying does not help making rational and shrewd decisions; quite the opposite really. My experience and general indifference it created in me, helped me when bosses decided to force RTO on us in my new place. I could have been worried, angry and/or disappointed, but I just started actively looking. I found something with a nice bump and a lot faster than I expected to and just responded no to RTO in an email. It was oddly satisfying even if not that professional.

You still need something to offer, but if you are worried, you will not be able to sell anyone on your skills.

Yes. I am advocating for zero-fucks-given attitude.

<Is there any remedy for the dread that keeps you up at night?

I had a punching bag downstairs and it was useful as physical activity does tire you out eventually, but everyone is a little bit different. During weekends, I tried hard to occupy myself with working in the yard. After a day in there, I didn't have a chance to worry as I fell asleep almost right away exhausted.

<Did you have family to support and come out the other end okay?

Emotional support mostly, but it did not help, because I do not really know how to accept it from others.

<How do you not laugh (in agony, of course) at the sudden change when management starts talking like they work Customer Service and have to pretend to be nice?

Gallows humor is what it is all about. The moment you start taking it more lightheartedly, I think you are almost automatically in a better spot emotionally.

<Do I keep this role (less than 1 year) on my resume for future applications?

Yes, because HR loves asking questions about gaps ( and some managers do as well ). It is not like you have to give a cell number to your future former boss. Explanations can get tricky. It is usually easier to explain why you moved on.