[fzfaa]

When driving, cyclists are dangerous for themselves and for others.

When walking, cyclists have absolutely no regard for my physical safety. When I lived in a city with a lot of cyclists I ended up developing some kind of fear that made me look around all the time because of how many cyclists had almost killed me when I was peacefully walking along the pavement.

Oh god how I hate cyclists.

[EntropyIsAHoax]

In Germany I see this as basically an infrastructure problem. Most of the bike lanes are just a painted red strip on the sidewalk. This is dangerous because it puts cyclists so close to pedestrians--who often move unpredictably into the bike lane--and it's easy as a pedestrian to accidentally wander into the bike lane. Especially at night when the red is hard to see (they should have chosen a brighter color like neon green) or near bus stops when pedestrians getting off the bus are almost forced to immediately cross the bike lane.

This is not to mention on some streets the bike lane just randomly ends and you find yourself on a sidewalk with no separate lane and you have to choose whether to stay on the sidewalk and risk hitting a pedestrian, or dangerously swerve into the street and risk getting hit by a car.

If they just built proper separated bike lanes protected from car traffic, and clearly separated from pedestrians this simply wouldn't be an issue at all. Copenhagen has it right where the bike lanes are painted bright blue and are on a physically raised level from both the street and sidewalk, in addition to prioritizing bikes and pedestrians at many intersections without stoplights. It's a joy to cycle around Copenhagen because of this.

[Elte]

Absolutely, bike lanes in Germany are an afterthought _at best_. I see bike lanes here springing into existence randomly with no way to get on (you're on the street with the cars, and suddenly you see a bike lane on the other side) and, similarly, ending with no reasonable way to continue (just hop off the sidewalk here please!). In my neigborhood, "red" means bike lane 50% of the time and sidewalk the other 50%. There is literally a sidewalk close by where the lane colors switch half way through. They're also often poorly paved with big bumps to get on and off at intersections.

Being born and raised in the Netherlands, this was a bit of a nasty surprise when I moved here. I really think you can cut down car use significantly by improving the infrastructure. The distances and landscape lend themselves well to biking, but the roads do not.

[taneq]

I've always found it ironic that there's a certain breed of cyclist who regards car drivers the way pedestrians regard cyclists, while regarding pedestrians the way car drivers regard cyclists, and while simultaneously perpetrating every insult that any of the above imposes on any other.

(Obviously there are many courteous cyclists too, just as there are many courteous drivers and pedestrians, I'm just talking about this particular group.)

[ndsipa_pomu]

Rather than trying to divide people into categories based on how they happen to be travelling (many cyclists are also drivers and pedestrians at times), I find it better to appreciate that a percentage of the population act like assholes (5%?). The thing is that assholes in motor vehicles are likely to injure/kill someone, whereas assholes on bikes are as likely to injure themselves as others and assholes on foot are very unlikely to injure others (excepting the ones that step out into a road/cycle path without looking). So, what we need to do is attempt to get as many assholes out of their cars and onto bikes (or foot) for as many journeys as possible. I welcome seeing an asshole on a bike as it means they're not currently an asshole in 2 tonnes of speeding death machine.

[ginko]

You seem to be under the impression that bikes are like cars where you're essentially guaranteed to be dead of at least maimed when they hit you.

In reality the most likely thing to happen to you is that you maybe get so nasty scratches and dirty clothing.

[cstrahan]

… unless you’re longboarding around 20 mph and just about to go through a green light when a dozen bikes come flying through at 20-25 mph 5 seconds after their light turned red.

That’s what happened to me. Only reason I didn’t get trampled was because I had a funny feeling and decided to slow down as I approached the intersection (buildings obscured my view of possible traffic).

They had zero sense of self preservation, let alone any regard for anyone else.

[adrianN]

I believe that longboarding on a public road at 20mph would be illegal where I live. It certainly sounds pretty dangerous. What's the stopping distance at that speed on a longboard?

[sixstringtheory]

Yeah, I never try to time lights like that anymore, I’ve seen so many cars blow red lights. I always proceed slowly and look both ways for one coming at a fresh green, whether on bike or in car.

I’ve had a similar experience walking, I was in the middle of a crosswalk on a four lane road by the time a dozen teenagers blew through their red light, popping wheelies on gold plated BMXs, cars screeching in the middle of the intersection to avoid hitting them. I almost yelled at the first one that went by me thinking they were the only one, but was very glad I didn’t when all the others passed around me. One of the wildest things I’ve seen in a city.

[throw_a_grenade]

Not OP, but this your "reality" is wrong. For example, three days ago in Warsaw, a cyclist ran over a child (ER took the child to hospital) on a busy promenade on the bank of the river. The cycleway is temporarily moved there because of the roadwork and the space is designated as shared between cycle and foot traffic.

For several days pedestarians complained that cyclists drive like crazy and it's "when" not "if" some cyclist will hit someone. That unfortunately proved to be accurate.

https://tvn24.pl/tvnwarszawa/ulice/warszawa-rowerzysta-potra... [PL]

[ginko]

Meanwhile there's over 2000 deadly car accidents a year in Poland, 20% of which are pedestrians[1], meaning there's more than one pedestrian killed by a car every day.

[1] https://notesfrompoland.com/2021/11/23/road-deaths-in-poland...

[vetinari]

How many of these pedestrian were hit on sidewalk? How many on pedestrian crossing? And how many on roads, outside of crossing?

I would guess that the stats would be radically different, if we took only pedestrians on sidewalks, as was the case above.

[fluoridation]

Yes, collisions between vehicles and pedestrians happen where the two interact, and the places where they do can be different for different classes of vehicles. What's your point?

[vetinari]

See above:

> a cyclist ran over a child (ER took the child to hospital) on a busy promenade on the bank of the river.

Promenades happen to be dedicated to pedestrians. So pedestrian was hit in a place, where he was supposed to be safe.

And then...

> Meanwhile there's over 2000 deadly car accidents a year in Poland, 20% of which are pedestrians[1], meaning there's more than one pedestrian killed by a car every day.

These accidents probably didn't happen on promenades, pavements, sidewalks, footpaths or other places dedicated to pedestrians.

So back to my point: comparing apples with apples. This comparison wasn't it.

[throw_a_grenade]

I would like to see those statistics normalised by the kilometres travelled. Unless they are, I'd argue those are misleading.

[WesolyKubeczek]

There's a rule that says that if you have (and have a right to at all) ride or drive anything on wheels in an area designated primarily for pedestrian use, you have to move at pedestrian speed. It doesn't matter if you are on a bicycle or an electric scooter, or on a garbage truck, 5 km/h it is.

And yet people seem to promptly forget about it as soon as they get onto their killing machines. Must be something in the wheels or saddles causing them a selective amnesia.

Electric scooters on crosswalks are surely a plague. Teens on them tend to ride out of the bushes at their maximum speed and cross roads without ever slowing down, making it quite hard for drivers to anticipate. Yes, you have right of way, dolt, but so has a car that just turned right, after making sure it's clear to go. There is no way to tell that a crazy kid is going to jump out in the next 300ms.

[jonahrd]

Imagine if during road work they created a "temporarily shared space" between car and foot traffic.

This is still a systemic issue due to poor urban design/planning. The kid was injured because the city didn't properly separate two different modes of transit. Even if it was "temporary"

We could live in a world where treat bike lanes with the respect we treat car lanes and give them proper detours and this wouldn't be an issue.

[illuminati1911]

I love cycling and bicycles, but I have to say you have a point in your second statement. Back in the days when I used to live in Helsinki, streets became much more dangerous after cycling became popular and city built dedicated cycling lanes. Suddenly all the hipsters with their 5000 USD handmake Swiss custom bikes are out there to kill the pedestrians.

Outside of some developing countries I've never felt threatened by cars, but I've been just less than a second away from death or permanent disability because of bicycles in Helsinki, Berlin, Tel Aviv etc.

[CaptainMarvel]

It sounds so hard to believe that streets became “much more dangerous” with “cyclists out there to kill pedestrians” that I looked for sources on the matter.

First result [0] says there were zero pedestrian or cyclist fatalities in 2019, with ping-term trend being increasing safety.

Another result [1] on how it was achieved: “cut speed limits, changed street design, removed space for cars and generally made life harder for motorists”.

Huh… sounds like cars are doing the killing…

[0]: https://news.cision.com/city-of-helsinki/r/zero-pedestrian-a...

[1]: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/16/how-helsinki-a...

[prmoustache]

> Outside of some developing countries I've never felt threatened by cars, but I've been just less than a second away from death or permanent disability because of bicycles in Helsinki, Berlin, Tel Aviv etc.

What less than a second away means to you?

I think there is a bias based on perception. When people see a cyclists going in their direction they assume said cyclist will ran into them on purpose while a bicycle comes into a complete stop in just a handful of meters and can avoid objects easily. I am not condoning riding fast and recklessly in path shared to pedestrian and cyclists and I tend to lower my speed at barely more than running pace but a lot of that comes from perception.

One other example, I have been riding MTB for years in swiss Alps, in trails shared by hikers and mountain bike. If I am in a descent I tend to go quite fast when visibility is good and I can see what is at the exit of a corner. When there is no visibility I will reduce my speed dramatically to be able to stop for any hiker, cattle or whatever that could be in the way. The thing is braking hard on a mountain bike with aggressive tires on dirt/rocks is quite a noisy affair and involve a bit of sliding, which is fair and nice. Hikers on the other side of the corner would often end up being afraid by the sound and shouting insults at me like I was a criminal while I had preventively braked to a safe speed in order for anyone to be safe. Perception bias. In later years I started braking much earlier and in a longer distance has to do less noise, removing fun just so that people are less afraid. It didn't change a thing regarding their safety. Sad.

[watwut]

> Outside of some developing countries I've never felt threatened by cars, but I've been just less than a second away from death or permanent disability because of bicycles in Helsinki, Berlin, Tel Aviv etc.

One seriously distinct American thing is to claim deadly dangers in extraordinary safe situations and places.

[zizee]

Being hit by a cyclist is no laughing matter, especially if you are a child or elderly. That said, cyclist/pedestrian accidents account for relatively few deaths and injuries compared to other forms of transport.

[watwut]

> That said, cyclist/pedestrian accidents account for relatively few deaths and injuries compared to other forms of transport.

Yes. They are both less frequent and the consequences are less grave. Even among people who survive them, the injuries are less serious then injuries of car accidents.

Also, more specifically, Berlin and Helsinki are not unsafe with their use of bicycles. There is no army of permanently disabled people due to use of either in those cities. Whatever is the root of hate toward cyclists, the actual safety is not it. For that matter, people who use bikes for transport rarely use super expensive bikes. That part of the comment does not work either.