Ask HN: Are you going to quit?

[daveleebbc]

September looks to be crunch time for (some, mostly big) tech companies looking to get people back to the office. Apple being the most notable to lay out the demand.

So... those of you working at companies demadning a return-to-office... are you going to quit?

[01100011]

China is falling into recession. Europe is falling into recession. A Federal Reserve governor(Kashkari) is now expressing doubt that inflation can be reined in without triggering a recession. Stonks have recovered from the initial drop, but that is a familiar pattern in many previous stock bubbles before the market really plummets.

Think really hard about switching jobs now. If you do, have liquid reserves to fall back on(cash or cash equivalents, T-Bills, not stocks), and pick a company with good cash flow.

I understand folks who have ridden out the last two recessions and will tell you you'll be fine, and you probably will be, but don't be hasty right now. A lot of big companies are going to be under growth pressures in the next few quarters and one easy way to cut expenses is to fire people.

[eru]

> China is falling into recession. Europe is falling into recession. A Federal Reserve governor(Kashkari) is now expressing doubt that inflation can be reined in without triggering a recession. Stonks have recovered from the initial drop, but that is a familiar pattern in many previous stock bubbles before the market really plummets.

You (nor anyone else) can forecast neither recessions nor 'stock bubbles'.

Otherwise they'd have already made a fortune in the financial markets.

Of course, a recession is always possible.

[baron816]

That theory doesn’t apply as strongly to recessions as it does financial markets.

Recessions just aren’t well defined, and you’re not going to know for sure if you’re in one/were in one until months or even years after it started because you need to collect a whole lot of data on the economy. But you do start getting early signs. It doesn’t have to come all at once in a huge market crash. That is actually pretty rare. It’s totally possible for an economy to slowly wither and then falter.

Both China and Europe are in trouble. Europe’s energy shock could be painful, but it has the potential to be short lived. China’s property market looks like a real mess, and could have huge political consequences that extend beyond its borders.

[eru]

> That theory doesn’t apply as strongly to recessions as it does financial markets.

You seem to suggest that financial markets are decoupled from the economy?

To be precise: my thesis is that you can not forecast recessions better than the market consensus. And not just in stocks:

For example, If you can forecast that industrial activity will be slowing, you can make a lot of money in commodities futures markets.

If you can forecast an increase in defaults, you can make a lot of money trading credit-default-swaps.

Slightly less finance-y: if it was easy to forecast recessions, wouldn't you expect to see that reflected in business inventories?

In general, if forecasting a recession was easy enough that you and me can do it, you'd expect businesses in general to anticipate the coming recession, and that anticipation would look exactly like a recession. Thus making the forecast a now-cast.

[falcolas]

I know this isn’t quite what you’re meaning, but it sounds like you’re saying “don’t quit so they can fire you instead.”

[bluefirebrand]

If you're in a country with any kind of decent labour rights, getting let go is 100% better than quitting.

If you quit you don't get EI, you don't get any kind of payoff from the company, and it looks worse than "I was let go due to company downsizing" when interviewing.

[wXD29445tmDjTPC]

I'm in France which is quite decent for labor rights, but the only time I have been let go, I had to wait 6 months before getting any money because a bunch of judges and lawyers had to fight to decide who would get money and how much.

It's good in theory, but in practice you can't count on that money, and you must find another job ASAP to feed your family.

I found a better job and I will quit because it's way faster for me to get out of my current company's mess.

[almost_usual]

So get fired for not commuting to work then.

[hiyer]

Getting fired is not the same as being laid off. If they fire you for insubordination (which is what not reporting for mandatory office attendance would be) or bad performance, they don't have to pay you anything. If you're laid off, most companies would give you at least a few months of pay in compensation.

[smugma]

Not showing up to the office when required could be a fireable offense (not quite insubordination but along the same lines).

I knew a guy at Apple that was given 60 days to find a new job or move to LA or be terminated. He found a job in another team just as his 60 days was running out.

[Jtsummers]

If you want to qualify for unemployment (in the US), don't get fired. Losing your job through your own fault usually disqualifies you from collecting.

[cratermoon]

Smaller companies will let you go and say you shouldn't get unemployment insurance, but if you appeal they won't bother to contest, so you can collect anyway. This works especially well if the company's HQ are in a different state than were you work, but it also depends which state you reside. It's not solely about so-called "at will", though.

[bigmattystyles]

All things being equal, you are much less likely to be laid off from an employer you have been with, where you have a track record than at a place where you’re the new person and still need to be trained / onboarded

[implfuture]

A primary factor in choosing my latest job was having an office to go into. I’ve been going in M-F and love working in person again. I don’t think forcing everyone back is necessarily the right strategy, but instead encouraging teams to re-form around people with similar preferences.

[Nav_Panel]

I've also been going in 4 days a week since we signed our office lease a few months ago, I really like it. We still do full remote (since day 1, back in 2018!) but I find that the office really helps with communication, especially amongst leadership. Doesn't bother me if any of the devs are FT remote, but I definitely prefer seeing the CEO, head of business, head of product, etc. all in person.

[thebigspacefuck]

I haven’t been going into the office M-F but I’m up to a couple days a week and it’s been good to recalibrate to what a full day in the office feels like. The morning ritual of preparation. The commute creating bookends to the workday. Going out to lunch or grabbing drinks after work with colleagues. Maybe I’m the only one, but I really let myself go during part of the pandemic and by going back to the office it feels like I’m coming out of it in some way. I may go back to the office full time for a while just to know I’m making the decision to work remotely for the right reason and not because I ended up that way 2 years ago.

[rswskg]

I'm feeling that this is the new contrarian take

[pm90]

I would leave. Not because I don’t like the office; but trying to force employees to do this doesn’t sit well with me. Remote first with optional office for those who chose to should be the default strategy.

Anecdotally Ive continued to receive a similar amount of recruiter emails as I did before the market downturn a few months ago. So my current thinking is that tech layoffs are companies force purging to please the Wall Street gods while demand continues to stay stratospherically high for technology.

[egeozcan]

I already did quit my previous job in Frankfurt because they wanted us to return to the office towards the end of 2020. I expect to be treated like an adult and have the flexibility to come to the office on the days when I, or my co-workers see the need.

In my current job, I have that flexibility and that is worth at least a couple of 10 thousand euros per year to me (well if the inflation can't be controlled for some more time then maybe not).

[arcticbull]

Nah, I miss working with other humans. Spending every day in a closet typing by myself honestly sucks. That won't be true for everyone, some folks will have kids at home - but even those, I have to imagine will (a) get tired of the kids or (b) have their kids off at school and be in my situation. I've started biking to work (voluntarily) since there's a lot of flexibility, it's great to get some sunshine and fresh air, and also see other humans.

Living your life in a 12ft radius of your bed ain't great lol.

[freedom2099]

Move to a bigger place then! The beauty of wfh is that you can live wherever you want! I have a very nice home office… my wfh setup is by many orders of magnitude better than what the office used to offer: better desk (nice electric standing desk), better chair, better monitors, better headset/mic, a quiet space!

[arcticbull]

Moving to a bigger place won't put my coworkers into it lol

[freedom2099]

If you need a social life get in touch with your friends and family! Working from home you will get much more time to spend with them!

[arcticbull]

I spend plenty of time with friends and family after work - and on weekends of course - however I spend 9am to 7pm in isolation. This is the part I am referencing. I'm completely open to it not being a problem for you, but I don't like it.

With respect, the question was what about I am going to do.

[freedom2099]

I guess this is a problem without a solution that will make everyone happy. On my side 8 hours without a single human interaction are my ideal working day (unfortunately that rarely happens since I have many meetings or people reaching out on teams).

[bluefirebrand]

My job doesn't have an office in town.

If they start to insist I move to one of the cities they have an office in, I will refuse and they can terminate me if they want.

I'm not doing it.

If they open an office in town, I'll consider going in once a month or so

[missedthecue]

Once a month?? Why the office hate?

[bluefirebrand]

Everything about working in an office sucks.

Commuting sucks, paying for parking sucks, shared kitchens suck, open floor plans suck, office politics suck, being at the whim of people "just dropping by your desk to ask a quick question" sucks. Getting sick all the time when people don't stay home and they spread it around the office sucks. No seriously, I haven't had a cold or flu since the pandemic started, I love not getting sick every flu season.

What is good about offices? Why do you like them?

[missedthecue]

I like commuting, I like smalltalk, I like dropping by people's desk to ask a quick question, and I don't mind it when people do the same to me. I like getting to know people, I like going out for lunch with coworkers, I like building relationships with people. I like knowing the identity of those I work with beyond a Slack pfp.

I can understand the not getting sick part, but I guess I never really suffered from colds that often. (Though I know some people who get them four times a year -- if this is you, I sympathize)

I know this website has a selection bias for introverts but surely I cannot be the only human who feels this way. The worst part is that anyone who wants WFH can have it, but I cannot have what I need. I pay for a WeWork just to get me out of the house, but that's basically nothing more than an expensive home office. My job is still 100% slack and zoom with everyone else in their bedrooms. WFH makes me depressed.

[otoburb]

>>The worst part is that anyone who wants WFH can have it, but I cannot have what I need.

Some employers are mandating back to office, so this option is being taken away. Those that prefer to WFH are not able to have what they need/want.

I'm always curious why those who like to work in the office are opposed to letting employees choose what they wish to do.

>>My job is still 100% slack and zoom with everyone else in their bedrooms. WFH makes me depressed.

I feel that most WFH proponents are in the minority, or on the spectrum of wanting to have the option to go in sometimes. So hopefully you won't be 100% on Slack/Zoom if employees are given the choice.

[bluefirebrand]

> I'm always curious why those who like to work in the office are opposed to letting employees choose what they wish to do.

I think it's because they know that a lot of their coworkers will choose not to come into the office anymore, so the office will feel empty and that will make them feel lonely and sad.

[WelcomeShorty]

> I like commuting, I like smalltalk, I like dropping by people's desk to ask a quick question, and I don't mind it when people do the same to me. I like getting to know people, I like going out for lunch with coworkers, I like building relationships with people. I like knowing the identity of those I work with beyond a Slack pfp.

You can not seriously suggest that people who can do (and have done the last 2 years) their job remotely and want to keep doing that, come to the office to satisfy these... desires?

Why not get a job that gives that to you, naturally like a sales person or bartender or something.

[etrautmann]

What? I’m in the middle here but your suggestion is not practical. Your professional interests should be largely orthogonalizable from your personality traits like degree of extroversion. I’m a scientist. I like people. I don’t want to have to be a bartender because I like working with other people.

[dnissley]

Hello, introvert here. I also love all of those office things you listed (provided I have enough space to work by myself in between). I specifically quit my wfh-only job and moved cross country to go back to the office. I joined Meta here in Seattle where most of my org's employees still are wfh full time, and so I still have lots of video calls, but I've found a nice sized crew of people like us who come in most days and have been enjoying it thoroughly. It's kind of oddly cozy actually, having only 10-20 people out of 80-90 seats on any given day. Kind of like coming in the day before some major holiday when lots of ppl take off an extra day, except it's everyday. I can't recommend enough getting out of the wfh situation if it's making you depressed.

[egeozcan]

Why can't you just be you, together with other extroverts, and stop trying to convince others to come to the office?

As people are discussing if they should quit over having to come to the office, you can also think about quitting because you don't have an office to go to?

[missedthecue]

Why quit? There are no companies or startups hiring my occupation for in-office-only. There are no job boards that curate in-office-only hiring postings. I could quit and go WFH for another company but that doesn't solve the problem.

[bluefirebrand]

> The worst part is that anyone who wants WFH can have it, but I cannot have what I need.

This really makes it sound like you think other people should be forced back to offices so that you can get what you "need"

Office work shouldn't be your substitute for a social life.

[missedthecue]

What I mean to say is that I cannot take unilateral steps to remediate the issue at hand (i.e. quitting and finding a new employer)

Someone who prefers WFH can do this.

[freedom2099]

Don’t you have friends? For my social needs I have family and friends… and since now I don’t have to commute and I am home at lunch I can engage more with them than before! Life is so much better since I started working from home!

[kyriakos]

I guess it depends how much distraction you used to get. Personally there were times when people from multiple teams were queuing at my desk to speak with me. Same happens during remote but at least I can choose when to respond and prioritise them accordingly. Ironically I forgot this issue existed at the office until I went back for one day and it started happening again (at a lesser extend since less people were in). On that day I decided that going to the office at least for my current position is not viable. Thankfully the company is still happy allowing remote work.

[lloydatkinson]

Was the entire point of your argument just to attack someone else’s point of view? Don’t be one of those “I don’t like WFH so how can you possibly like it?”. The entire way you asked it indicates you are indeed being that person.

Be better.

[quittingoffice]

Yes. Office work is for dinosaurs.

[voisin]

Name checks out.

[exapple]

I quit Apple early June because of this reason. Found a new job with better pay. Starting September.

[gaws]

What's the job? What's the pay?

[mathieuh]

I moved jobs from a job with 100% WFH allowed to another one with 100% WFH allowed.

Luckily I live 15 minutes door-to-door on the bus away so I’ve been going in for not even a full day once per week. I do now think it’s nice to see people, but really that’s all I’m going in for, I find I am far more comfortable and therefore work better at home.

Don’t see myself ever working in an office again, and I look back on the days where I would actually take two flights a week to go and work in other people’s offices with amazement that I actually put up with it

[fileeditview]

It's the same for me. I really sometimes miss my colleagues but not in a way that I get depressed, sad or lonely (I have a family and 2 kids at home). I just miss talking to them, drinking a coffee or having lunch together. We still try to do this from time to time but it happens only every few months.

For working my home office is far superior.. less disruptions, better ergonomics, no commute. The only thing that I think is really better in person are whiteboard sessions. Sure you can do it online via whatever collaborative tool but it is not the same.

[Dig1t]

Yeah but a big chunk of stock vests in October, so holding out for that. I can stomach a month in the office

[hsn915]

Probably, but not because of going back to the office.

If anything, being back in the office would be welcome for me. Sure, commute is a bit inefficient, but a lot of time is wasted when no one goes to the office ever.

Three times a week seems like a good balance to me.

[wXD29445tmDjTPC]

[Throwaway account but a real answer nonetheless].

I will quit in a few days due to a combination of various factors. I found out, way too late in my professional life, that I was exploited by all the companies I worked for. My salary being too low, and the ridiculous number of days working from home are important factors but it's not limited to this.

An old friend called me recently and offered me a job at his company. I thought about it for a few days, talked to my wife about it, and accepted an interview. That's where I discovered that I was being "exploited."

I will have interesting tasks, I'll work on modern C++ again which is good since I have been lazy about it and didn't improve for those past few years, I will have up to 4 days of WFH per week if I want, and I managed to get a 40% salary increase (yes, 40%).

My current employer refused all my demands: salary, WFH, support from the managers, budget, ... I will get most of that elsewhere. I will miss my colleagues who are very competent, but I will NOT miss the management and the crazy answers from the HR department. They will freak out though when I send my resignation letter as I became a central point across all the teams, but it's their loss.

End of the rant!

[theklr]

Kudos to you stepping out and up and getting what you’re worth.

[frays]

I was ready to make the move until I learnt about the Google hiring freeze. I'm going to play it safe and remain in my role for now.

[fshbbdssbbgdd]

My boss is pretty chill about making us go in. The office has a lot of utility, so it’s great to have it available.

[bravetraveler]

I probably would if mine were actually taking a stance. It's been mixed messaging so I'm on the fence.

I'm in a fairly odd situation, however. Prior to lockdown I was already WFH. Oddities are coming...

After the lockdown started we went through at least two leadership changes. Now I'll [eventually] have to self report by 'filing a request' to make the WFH status official.

It doesn't sound like it's something likely to be denied, but rather something I'll regret later.

I'm now having to basically have this same negotiation again six years later.

If I have to do that, I may as well do it for more money. I don't recognize my role [or team] anyway after going through the tumbler

[redditor98654]

Amazon?

[bravetraveler]

Nope, I'll never work for Bezos hah

[Brajeshwar]

Always be Quitting. This was on HackerNews some time back -- https://jmmv.dev/2021/04/always-be-quitting.html

[theshrike79]

My current job was a "hybrid" model, practically everyone is 100% remote unless they specifically wanted to go to the office. Three people wanted to - they lived a 10 minute walk away from the office and didn't have space in their apartments.

All jobs I apply from now on should be remote with a local option. Some things are just easier to do in-person, but mandating 3 days in the office per week is just overkill. Let the team decide what's best for them.

And if you have some bigger all-hands events, warn a few weeks beforehand so people can make accommodations.

[teeray]

> If you have some bigger all-hands events…

Just do something else instead. Have an internal podcast that I can listen to async while I mow my lawn or clean my house. There’s no need to tie up your entire workforce for a live stream. Deal with Q&A (which is usually terrible anyway) by having a Q&A episode where you answer the top 10 upvoted questions.

[jcadam]

I've moved to a rural area and am thus in a position to where I now have to work remotely.

I much prefer the lifestyle out here to living in cities, so as long as a large number of companies are sticking with remote work, I should be good. Companies like Apple that invested in massive new campuses in recent years understandably have an incentive to get people in them.

[egeozcan]

> Companies like Apple that invested in massive new campuses in recent years understandably have an incentive to get people in them.

I don't understand it. It's a sunk cost, getting people there will just increase the costs and make many unhappy.

[drusepth]

Not "quitting", but I considered taking a job at a FAANG (and letting startup be passive income) for a hot second a month or two ago... until they couldn't guarantee the remote position I was applying for would continue to be remote for the rest of the year.

Now I'm _really_ glad I didn't take it.

[otoburb]

>>So... those of you working at companies demadning a return-to-office... are you going to quit?

As with most situations of this nature, it's infinitely easier to make this decision if you already have a decently competitive job offer in-hand.

[wooque]

I'm going to quit, but not because of return-to-office, but because I can. I'll take few months off before searching for a new job. I don't have big expenses and plenty of cash in bank.

[moomoo11]

I’m going remote while my employment status still shows me as full time remote.

However I’m moving to the Bay Area to fulfill my dream of living (hopefully someday in the future thrive lol) in the tech hotbed

[birdyrooster]

I will call their bluff.

[timmyboop]

How do you mean?

[birdyrooster]

Just keep doing what works best for our team regardless of whether that means butts in seats three days a week or not.

[slt2021]

in office work is really needed for first couple months (newhire orientation), after that hybrid is fine. Full remote after full one year is perfect

[obnauticus]

Be careful doxing yourself with this one :).

[throwawaysleep]

I take at least one interview a week on company time. Always be prepared to leave at the drop of a hat.

[eru]

Why on company time?

(I typically don't officially track work hours anyway (only informally for myself to keep track of my work/life balance), and just worry that I get my week's worth of work done. So I wouldn't even know how to do any extracurricular activity 'on company time'.)

[postalrat]

Only one?

[chr1ss]

yep, would do and do