[rvz]

> Admitted?

Yes. Admitted. [0]

> The difference between L2 and L5 is liability.

Everyone from the regulators to Musk himself have known that for years that it is more than just liability and none of the claims of achieving 'Level 5' FSD and the hype around the robotaxis have ever materialized with many customers falling for the scam lead by the pied piper (Musk) and once again increased prices on a broken product.

[0] https://www.news18.com/news/auto/teslas-full-self-driving-cl...

[Geee]

The driver has to be liable, until the L5 system has lower error-rate than a human. For regulatory and liability reasons, it should be registered as an L2 until it's perfect. No one has ever claimed that FSD is a finished product.

[rvz]

> The driver has to be liable, until the L5 system has lower error-rate than a human.

Which that was promised to be completed in 2020. Where are the Level 5 robotaxis that Elon was confident enough to release by that year?

> For regulatory and liability reasons, it should be registered as an L2 until it's perfect.

And FSD was advertised as Level 5 by Tesla and was due to be complete by 2020 deadline. Even before that, many customers fell for this and were promised that future updates would eventually make it Level 5.

See how the scam works? Not only it was meant to be 'Level 5' as advertised by 2020, Tesla knew that it won't get there all along and continued the deception as their fans bought into the false promise and customers realised that they are paying for a broken contraption that didn't function as advertised and will continue paying for it as the price keeps increasing.

> No one has ever claimed that FSD is a finished product.

Yes. Elon (and Tesla) were the only ones that claimed and promised that it will be finished with robo-taxis on the road, at Level 5 FSD by 2020. This is the pied-piper scam and they have sold a false promise to their loyal fanbase and they will pay for an unfinished product until its 'perfect Level 5 FSD'; whenever that is and will continue to raise prices.

I also don't think it is ok to use unfinished safety critical software on the roads and put many driver's on the roads lives at risk.

[Geee]

FSD is a level 5 system, but it just has too high error rate to give it full control. It's a beta software for a level 5 system.

Level 5 means that the system is designed for autonomous driving in every situation. It's not a metric whether the system actually works. There will be multiple level 5 systems on the road some day, and some of them will make mistakes more than others. Just like all technology and software, it's impossible to make these systems perfect.

Yes, Elon overpromised and they failed to deliver in time. This was compensated by cheaper prices, just like is usual in beta programs. Today, FSD is already insanely good and can drive 99% of time without human intervention.

It's still not good enough, and it's multiple years late from original forecasts. Still, I wouldn't call it a scam. It's a delayed project with a pre-order/beta program, but given it's huge complexity and importance, I'm willing to forgive them. When it's ready, no one cares that it was a few years late.

[rvz]

> FSD is a level 5 system, but it just has too high error rate to give it full control. It's a beta software for a level 5 system.

Level 5 defines that the system is so reliable that there is zero intervention of the driver and that there is no need for them to be fully attentive behind the wheel as defined by the SAE [0]; exactly the requirement of a robo-taxi. This was advertised by Tesla with claims of robo-taxis by 2020, with a fake taxi app for marketing the scam.

> Yes, Elon overpromised and they failed to deliver in time.

And yet he continues to play the pied piper with more false promises. Like these claims and promises:

   "Tesla's Full Self-Driving tech will have Level 5 autonomy by the end of 2021" [0]

   "FSD will be capable of driving the car anywhere under any conditions with no need for human interaction." [0]

So it is now 2022 and they finally admitted it is Level 2 and requires the full attention of the driver having their eyes on the road at all times. Another false promise.

> Today, FSD is already insanely good and can drive 99% of time without human intervention.

Even the Tesla fans and FSD beta testers dispute this vacuous claim and that figure is significantly lower, given that it completely doesn't work in the most dangerous time to drive which is at night and in other conditions as well. As long as it still requires the driver to be always attentive behind the wheel with FSD on, it is not "Level 5 Full Self Driving" which was advertised by Elon Musk and Tesla but it is absolutely Level 2.

> It's still not good enough, and it's multiple years late from original forecasts. Still, I wouldn't call it a scam.

You need to snap out of the pied piper's scam and realise that FSD is an on-going scam, compensating their false promises for more price increases and forever promises.

[0] https://www.sae.org/binaries/content/assets/cm/content/blog/...

[1] https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/elon-musk-full-self-drivi...

[Geee]

It drives just fine at night: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCTssX2VdKA

Progress this year has been pretty amazing. If they didn't progress or didn't try to make it work, then I'd call it a scam.

You're not reading that SAR chart right. If you look at the features and examples, FSD is level 5 in there. That's what the system is designed to do. It's not a lane assistant or a traffic jam chauffer. Again, it's level 2 only because it's beta and requires supervision, and the driver is liable for any mistakes.

[rvz]

> Progress this year has been pretty amazing. If they didn't progress or didn't try to make it work, then I'd call it a scam.

It should have been complete years ago in 2020, at Level 5 FSD; so what do you mean about 'progress'? After missing more deadlines and claims, the price of FSD increases again despite the multiple malfunctions from lots of testers.

One example of a devoted Tesla fan / investor (Whole Mars Catalog) doing controlled experiments and driving around the same San Francisco street(s) is hardly a generic case of the whole situation.

> You're not reading that SAR chart right

I have read it correctly and Tesla FSD is still not Level 5 as advertised and by definition of the SAE chart.

Even in the video the driver is still paying full attention and has to continuously intervene by touching and guiding the steering wheel. They still have their attention and their eyes on the road which is not required for a Level 5 robot-taxi FSD system supposedly due for 2020.

So Tesla knows they are selling a Level 2 system still requiring the full attention of the driver and still not even close to the Level 5 robo-taxi claims, but was marketed as Level 5 anyway to mislead their customers with the help of their loyal fans doing videos of controlled experiments to fool new customers into purchasing an unfinished product.

Given it frequently malfunctions, the generic excuse is: ‘With each update, it gets better’,‘There is potential, buy it now before the price increases again’ or ‘It will get better soon, its early days’.

It is clearly not early days and we have given it enough time to be Level 5 FSD and it still isn't close even if they were given up to this year to finish it. So it is definitely a piped piper scam selling false promises to their customers. If this was a different company, there would be class action lawsuits all over this.

You need to really snap out of it.