[drawingthesun]

Moved on to where?

Windows has adverts in the start menu!

Desktop Linux GUI is still painful and really only suitable for those who love to tinker.

Since I moved to Mac from Windows I’m thankful for macOS even if it could be better, it’s still much more usable than the alternatives.

I find myself spending more time on my professional work and less time fixing driver issues or fighting annoying in OS ads.

[davrosthedalek]

I am the "analysis software coordinator" for a nuclear physics experiment (MUSE). The software framework we use was originally developed by me, on a macbook pro, mainly, targeting both MacOS and Linux. We have to onboard new students regularly, and it's quite a software stack to compile (Geant4, root, helper libs, our framework). 5-10 years ago, I was happy if a new student was on Mac. Slap homebrew on it, install the dependencies, install the software. Pretty straight forward. But now, it get more and more brittle. New xcode? Better start downloading new versions and recompile everything, and pray that it works. Now I am actually happy if somebody brings a windows laptop. Slap on WSL, install ubuntu, just works. The number of students we had who used linux already on their laptop I can count on one hand with no fingers :(, but our new postdoc directly ran into an opengl problem on AMD which makes the gpu restart.... So from that perspective, Windows+WSL, with all its warts, comes closest to usable.

[ssivark]

On a tangent -- You might want to look into Guix (at least just the package manager, if not the whole system/distribution); it seems quite popular for similar use cases. See, eg: https://hpc.guix.info/about/

Also, with regards to linux, what stops you from making that the default that students onboard to? I would imagine that something like this becomes quite easy if you have a culture where group members help onboard the new ones into the ways of doing things.

[davrosthedalek]

They typically have one laptop, and a) they are not happy if I tell them that they need to switch to linux (and no word, less games...) b) it's often cheaper laptops with questionable linux support.

It's not like we can buy them a work laptop. At least not for each undergrad.

[noughtme]

Docker? After attemping to install dependencies and build GIS tools originating in the 90´s, I am so thankful for people who have published docker images of obscure software.

[davrosthedalek]

The students have to develop software using the framework, not just use the final program. I always found docker as a dev environment rather painful. Maybe I have to revisit.

[imron]

> I always found docker as a dev environment rather painful.

I’ve found the following to work quite well:

Have a docker compose file setup that runs a container with all the necessary build tools and anything else.

Map home directories, /opt and anything else you want to persist as named volumes.

Run docker compose up -d

Use the remote development extension of vscode to connect to the container and develop almost as if it was local.

[davrosthedalek]

vscode's remote dev is indeed god-tier. I love vscode.

[imron]

I’m not a huge fan of vscode (speaking as a c++ dev), but remote dev is a killer feature so I use it over other alternatives.

[MathMonkeyMan]

This is a neat idea.

[snoopy_telex]

Maybe https://www.vagrantup.com would be a better solution then vanilla docker

[geysersam]

Used Ubuntu for almost a decade now. Wouldn't call myself a tinkerer with respect to the OS, the defaults are totally fine. Drivers are rarely an issue ime. Maybe things have become better since last you tried?

[hot_gril]

I installed Ubuntu on my Acer laptop a few years ago. Fans didn't work after waking from sleep, so it'd overheat. Wifi was finicky. I didn't even try Bluetooth. Couldn't run Adobe Flash and thus couldn't watch the World Cup on the only legit website to watch in the US (Fox Sports).

Yeah, "not the OS's fault" etc. But Windows did all of that fine.

[janef0421]

Windows did all of that fine because the manufacturer made the machine with the intent of running windows and shipped it with drivers for its particular hardware. A System76 machine would be the same with linux, apart from the flash thing, so you aren't really saying anything meaningful about any operating system.

[hot_gril]

I'm saying it's painful for the user, who doesn't care about these details.

But speaking of laptops made for Linux, a lot of modern Lenovo Thinkpads have unpatched issues with Bluetooth audio, and my coworkers are constantly fighting with that. So even us techies have an easier time with Macs.

[sentrms]

Ubuntu / Linux definitely has come a long way. I used to compile kernels, write X11 config files, now it just works. Timed perfectly with my lack of time / willingness to tinker for hours to get stuff working.

[ricardobayes]

I somehow found bluetooth and sounds in general to be the achilles heel of Ubuntu. Both installations I have/had in my family either sound stopped overnight or bluetooth didn't work anymore after an update.

[onlyrealcuzzo]

Linux has had an arguably FAR superior UX to Windows since Vista.

Mac and Windows both have some great "power user" features - but I think for the average person, Ubuntu is far superior for usability.

I remember 10 years ago when my friends would use my Linux laptop and expect it to be impossible and couldn't believe how easy it was to use and figure out.

Maybe for a few rare laptops that have perfect driver support, it's on par. But this isn't a common case.

The main problem with Linux is for laptops - the power management is simply not in the same league as MacOS.

[hot_gril]

> Linux has had an arguably FAR superior UX to Windows since Vista.

Has had like 20 different maybe-superior UXes, often 2-3 for a single distro... which in a way is worse than one bad one that you get to know well. Like, I logged into my Linux machine at work one day, and the entire UI was suddenly different, ???

[bsder]

I finally dumped Mac completely for Ubuntu LTS on a Lenovo X1 Carbon about 12 months ago. My experience is that I'm now tinkering with things less on Linux than I used to on macOS/OS X.

I have an external Thundebolt dock that actually works. I'm not on the Xcode treadmill forcing me to update an OS because Apple dropped support. Updates are on my schedule instead of Apple's. I can use an actual standard 3D API (Vulkan) rather than the undocumented pile of crap that is Metal. My Bluetooth speakers are more reliable than they were on macOS. I can set my monitor resolutions without buying a dumbass Mac App. My printing system never gets confused forcing me to reinstall all my printers. I can go on and on.

Is it flawless? No. About once a week, my cursor response goes to absolute shit for about 90 seconds for no obvious reason. Occasionally, I hit one of the Wayland corner cases. Lots of software still doesn't run on Linux--so I have to keep a Windows box floating around, but I had to do that even with macOS. I've had 2 hangs over the last 12 months.

But, overall, while I can list grievances about my Macs endlessly, I have to actually think hard about what has genuinely pissed me off about Ubuntu.

I'm not going to deny anyone's experiences because when that's done to me I just get pissed off. In addition, I made a point to buy somewhat more expensive hardware that was a decent match to Ubuntu (better quality laptop, i5 for better thermal performance, max RAM and SSD). I'm just providing a counterpoint that for some of us Linux is a better environment than Windows or macOS.

[phasersout]

I run PopOS on a Thinkbook and overall the experience is more hassle free than my Windows-System these days.

[mrtedbear]

I'm a Ubuntu user but always install the PopOS shell for the wonderful tiling window manager.

It's such a convenient way to manage the desktop space and credit to System76 for making it available to other Gnome-based distros.

https://support.system76.com/articles/pop-shell/

[christophilus]

> Desktop Linux GUI is still painful and really only suitable for those who love to tinker.

For what it’s worth, this is only true if you buy a device with poor Linux support which is kind of like buying a hackintosh and complaining about how much tinkering OSX requires. If you buy a good Linux box and put Fedora or PopOS on there, I think you’ll be productive instantly.

My biased 2 cents.

[LtWorf]

> Desktop Linux GUI is still painful and really only suitable for those who love to tinker.

Nah it works completely fine. There is no photoshop, yes, but stuff does work.

[imron]

Except for power management, screen sharing under Wayland and certain Bluetooth headsets

[teddyh]

Headset does not work on Linux: “This is crap, I’ll tell everybody I know to stay away from Linux!”

Headset does not work on Windows: “This is crap, I’ll tell everybody I know to stay away from these headphones!”

[imron]

I’m actually trying to convince my current employer to let us use Linux laptops instead of windows ones (with Linux vms for all development).

My comment was in reply to someone saying Linux just works without needing to tinker, and as much as I’d prefer to be using a Linux based laptop, those are 3 things I have spent countless hours tinkering with to try and get working without success.

[teddyh]

I assume that there is reasonable PC laptops out there which also have problems with “power management, screen sharing […] and certain Bluetooth headsets” …on Windows. If you were to encounter such a laptop, would you also consider Windows to “not work” with these three things?

If not, then why do you do that for Linux?

[imron]

> If you were to encounter such a laptop

I don’t encounter such laptops except when they run Linux.

Other OSes have their own litany of issues, however the topic under discussion was how well Linux just worked without tinkering, and these things are still pain points for Linux that I don’t encounter on other platforms.

This is not to imply that Linux is bad out that you shouldn’t use it, just that it is still not tinker free.

[caskstrength]

I get battery life similar to Windows on my X1. I regularly share my screen on work-related meeting and it works for me without any issues on Gnome with Wayland.

[imron]

I no longer use a Linux laptop for work but as recently as a year ago, plugging an external monitor/keyboard in to my X14 wouldn’t wake it up (required manually opening and closing the lid), I could use the headphones on AirPods but not the mic, and screen sharing on teams (and a bunch of other video conferencing software) would only work on X11 and not Wayland.

This was running the latest Ubuntu at the time (20, and then 21).

Perhaps things have changed in the last year?

[avian]

> I could use the headphones on AirPods but not the mic

This is still the case. I was just trying to get this to work. You can't use the mic on a Bluetooth headset. There's supposedly a workaround that requires you to install and run a smartphone software stack on your laptop, but I could never get it to work.

[Macha]

> I no longer use a Linux laptop for work but as recently as a year ago, plugging an external monitor/keyboard in to my X14 wouldn’t wake it up (required manually opening and closing the lid)

Is this supposed to work on Mac? Does it need configuring? Is it something I need to enable? I always had to remove and reinsert the power cord to wake a sleeping docked Macbook.

[Macha]

My WH-1000XM4 has Mac os sometimes forget it has an audio device when the Mac wakes from sleep, resulting in a need to manually disconnect and reconnect from the Bluetooth menu.

My Samson G-Track Pro USB microphone does not get recognised on M1 Macs. It worked fine on a previous Intel Mac.

[christophilus]

The only one of those I have a problem with is screen sharing from Chromium-based browsers. Works fine from Firefox.

[lbwtaylor]

Apple constantly spams you with popup ads for their cloud services, far worse IMHO than any start menu nonsense. To each their own.

[tmikaeld]

Where? I have several Macs in my office, I might have seen a question on upgrade, but that's it. In Safari?

[runjake]

Not the commenter but macOS regularly spams people with:

- Ads to try Apple Music free for a month.

- Ads to try News+

- Ads to try Fitness+

- Try Safari (if it’s not your default browser)

- Try/log into iCloud if you’re not logged into iCloud.

- Try the latest macOS release if you aren’t on it.

As an aside, you do not want to even log into the Mac App Store with a personal account on a work computer.

Logging into just the Mac App Store effectively logs you into your iCloud on that machine and sensitive personal data is then strewn across various files under ~/Library. The iCloud sysprefs will claim you are not logged into iCloud but ~/Library will show you the truth.

[thies226j]

I am a macOS user and have never seen a popup or ads for News+, fitness+ or Apple Music.

In addition to that, what personal data are you talking about in your last paragraph?

[miked85]

I haven't ever seen a single popup ad for Apple services - what are you referring to?

[christophilus]

I see them on iOS any time I go to settings or take a photo or open Apple Music. You might not consider them to be ads, though. “Your iCloud storage is full…” and so on.

Not sure if OSX is like that, though, as I haven’t used it much in the last few years.

[vips7L]

And I’ve never seen ads in my windows pro install… so ymmv.

[LinearEntropy]

Which popups are these? The only one I ever received was when I hit the limit on my iCloud account. Certainly not anywhere as bad as all the adverts in teh start menu on my Windows work machine.

[chongli]

I’m paying like $4/mo for iCloud storage. All my files are backed up there. I don’t get any ads.

Is there an option like that on Windows?

[Lio]

The point is not that paying $4 a month rent isn’t useful to some people. It’s that another group of people want to own a computer that doesn’t beg for rent at all.

The old macOS provided that the new Mac, not so much.

[gsinclair]

The old macOS didn’t provide any cloud storage option, and the new one does, for a fee. That seems like progress, not begging for rent or a reason to be nostalgic.

[Lio]

Fair enough but if I decline once why does it need to keep nagging me to upgrade?

Likewise, if I just want to play music, and I decline the free introductory offer of an Apple Music subscription, why does it keep offering?

Like newsletter popups, having something get between me and what I want to do is annoying.

It’s the creeping “Not right now”, “Maybe later”, “We’ll in your face again after a random timer” bullshit I hate.

[chongli]

I agree with you in principle. I just take exception to the claim that this is somehow worse than Windows where you have pervasive 3rd party ads (including telemetry) and no way to opt out.

Frankly, I am rather pessimistic with the industry as a whole. Problems never seem to stay solved. There is constant churn, constant disruption of workflow and UI patterns. Constant change for its own sake and no reflection on what is really important.

[hammyhavoc]

Sounds like the days of a lack of ads on Apple products is changing: https://www.macworld.com/article/831218/ads-stocks-news-app-...

[dmz73]

OneDrive and it's free. Never seen an ad in Windows system itself. Switch to Windows and Save! :)

[ricardobayes]

I like to save that 48 dollars per year and just use the free tier of google drive.

[faeriechangling]

I've rarely found myself getting all that tied up in solving driver issues in linux especially after the first week of ownership of a new machine. Fighting annoying in OS ads, again, really a first week of ownership sort of thing.

Linux I find what's painful about it is that some things will always be kind of broken, for me it was bluetooth, I used bluetooth all the time, it did work, but I had to fight it into submission fucking daily. Windows? My goto example of what a shitshow windows is by far is the incoherent settings menus, and generally whereas Android and iOS and MacOS and Linux and all the OSes people actually use follow a lot of similar conventions Microsoft is SUPER SPECIAL and of course must do everything in their own unique way.

[hot_gril]

The Windows Control Panel is an abomination. Nothing is consistent in there. Even parts of the UI are clearly taken straight from Win2000.

[aprdm]

On both of my last companies linux was the default desktop and not many issues arises from it .

[pjmlp]

Not the pro versions, they can be removed, and it still entails 80% of the desktop market worldwide.

[trenchgun]

> Desktop Linux GUI is still painful and really only suitable for those who love to tinker.

KDE is pretty nice.

[shortlived]

Windows + your favorite Linux distro thanks to WSL. It’s the perfect combo.

[arvinsim]

Rumor has it that Mac will soon have ads on the AppStore

[lapcat]

There's no such rumor.

I'm sure that Apple would put ads in the Mac App Store if it were profitable for Apple. But it's likely not a big enough market to be worth it.

[justin66]

> There's no such rumor.

Well, there is now.