[idiotsecant]

Your position is that the correct thing for a nominal liberal democracy to do is to encourage another nominal liberal democracy to give it's sovereign territory to a government that is, to put it charitably, ruled by executive decree? Because...they want it?

[mythrwy]

I'm not sure how much of an understanding you have about what is going on there.

The Russian speaking areas do not want to be part of Ukraine after the 2014 coup. The one that was full of Western intelligence and US politicians, including the wife of Iraq war proponent Robert Kagan who is currently serving under Biden.

Many of these areas were part of Russia up until the Soviet Union, most particularly Crimea which was part of Russia from the 1700s until 1954. The people there are Russian. And, there wasn't really an issue until the coup which outset a democratically elected president. After that Russia took Crimea back (with a vote by the locals for whatever that is worth). The other breakaway republics were indiscriminately shelled for over 8 years. Over 14,000 people were killed which is nearly 3 times the amount of civilian casualties Russia has inflicted to date.

Also, Russia has been invaded along this (open) route a few times over the past couple of hundred years. Hitler and Napoleon. Millions died. Putins older brother in fact died as an infant during the Nazi siege.

So when Ukraine starts talking about getting nukes, joining NATO, have literal Nazi brigades attacking the breakaway republics and amassing hundreds of thousands of troops in the East to attack the breakaway republics and "get Crimea back" the Russians will just sit there? No, they will not. Now, again, their other aim is to get exclusive control of the Black Sea and take the oil and agricultural rich areas of the east, as well as increase their population. And we handed them a figleaf like dummies. They have a lot of legal ground. Putin is actually a lawyer (a fact lots of people don't know).

Let the people chose their destiny. Like we did in Kosovo when we wanted to put an airbase there. But no, that doesn't apply in this case. So it has heated up to this. I hope it settles down but the longer it goes on the worse for Ukraine. We should be urging peaceful settlement, not adding fuel to the fire.

[btilly]

You absolutely DON'T understand what is going on there.

The President of Ukraine is one of those Russian speaking Ukrainians that you're talking about. Why don't you ask him whether he would prefer to be part of Ukraine or Russia?

According to polls, Russian speaking Ukrainians overwhelmingly want to be in an independent Ukraine. And the longer the fighting goes on, the stronger that support gets. Strip away Russian propaganda, and "Russian speaking Ukrainians want to be in Russia" turns out to be a fantasy.

It is likewise only in Russian propaganda that Ukraine was looking to get nukes, or was on a course to join NATO. The "breakaway republics" in fact were invaded by Russia in 2014. Yes, the "green men" weren't wearing their Russian military insignia, but nobody was actually fooled. And satellite photos confirmed that the artillery was being fired from Russian territory. See https://iphronline.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Joint-repo... if you doubt me.

I'm not happy with everything we did involving Euromaiden. But Russia had set a democratically elected leader on a course to take over and become a Russia-friendly dictator. Ukraine need look no farther than Belarus to see how that story turns out. Describing it as the overthrow of a democratic regime is at best a half-truth. Probably no more than a quarter truth.

When it comes to legal issues, Russia HAS no legal ground other than a military, a willingness to lie, and other people's unwillingness to confront them.

Let's talk about the whole Nazi thing. It is true that the Azov battalion started as white supremacists, and got absorbed into Ukraine's military. (Then toned down the whole white supremacist thing a lot.) However this problem exists on both sides, and there are likely more white supremacists fighting on the Russian side than the Ukrainian. If this comes as a surprise to you, start with https://www.rferl.org/a/russian-neo-nazis-fighting-ukraine/3... for some of the basics. Worse yet, Russia has actively solicited, and received, international support from white supremacist organizations. Supporters like Steve Bannon opened doors, and are part of how we have Russian propaganda being spewed over Fox News by people like Steve Hannity.

Despite Russian rhetoric about "denazification", it is Russia that has sought out and obtained support from neo-Nazis and those sympathetic to them.

And so we see that again and again, you are consistently misinformed. You've swallowed Russian propaganda on issue after issue. This is in addition to your unwillingness to call a spade a spade and recognize Russian genocide as what it is.

[mythrwy]

Ok, so the breakaway Republics secretly wish to join the West but Dennis Pushilin is holding them hostage. Ridiculous.

I would advise against compounded the many many bad moves that have been made so far but it's free world.

What I stated is historical and geopolitical fact. Without (near as I can tell) much bias. It's not propaganda, it's the truth. Yes, Russia has traditionally been an expansionist power. Yes, they are looking for advantage.

But a whole lot of ethnic hatred and stupidity and Western involvement has made this even easier for them.

[btilly]

It is so ridiculous that you can read https://www.jhuapl.edu/Content/documents/ARIS_LittleGreenMen... for an unclassified report from the US government about Russia's disinformation campaign and the Russian special forces with no insignia who showed up and got the nickname "little green men".

You can read https://www.files.ethz.ch/isn/193514/Nuclear%20Backed%20%E2%... for a Polish report on the same, and how Russia used nuclear posturing to keep the world from more emphatically calling Russia on its brazen lies.

Apparently the conclusions of multiple organizations, ranging from widely respected NGOs to national governments, seem ridiculous to you. That does not mean that they are ridiculous. It merely means that you've accepted a dose of Russian disinformation. Which they've been very competent at packaging.

But no, you just keep repeating propaganda lines and claiming that sourced statements are ridiculous. While offering no sources for your claims, and ignoring a variety of sources that you have been provided.

Lies do not become fact merely by being repeated enough. And Russian lies about spontaneous uprisings and Ukrainian atrocities do not become fact simply because you can't accept that those uprisings were conducted by Russian soldiers, and the shelling of Ukrainian civilians in 2014 began with Russian artillery operating on Russian territory. Confirmed by ballistics, satellite photos, and testimony from the people who were shelled.

Sources that you currently believe which say otherwise should be viewed with suspicion. Because they are lying to you.

[mythrwy]

There are no breakaway republics? The majority of people in Crimea did not wish to rejoin Russia? All people on what is (formerly now) Ukraine territory were happy with the post coup Ukrainian government? Is that what you are saying?

If not, what exactly of my point do you take issue with? The claims on Russia geo strategical intent? The history of invasions into Russia through Ukraine in fairly recent times? That Crimea is not historically Russian?

These are all facts my friend. Not propaganda.

I wish you would take a more rational and less emotional view of the situation but I can't say I'd do differently in your circumstance. I am concerned where the irrationality leads however. It has so far caused nothing but trouble for Ukraine. And the trouble is spreading.

[_kbh_]

> There are no breakaway republics?.

There are Russian backed terrorists that are temporarily occupying Ukrainian territory, these terrorists shot down a civilian airliner and killed hundreds.

> The majority of people in Crimea did not wish to rejoin Russia?

Theres no been no real referendums so we will never, but the partisan posters that keep appearing in Crimea would suggest that no the majority dont want to join Russia.

> All people on what is (formerly now) Ukraine territory were happy with the post coup Ukrainian government? Is that what you are saying?

All the people on occupied Ukrainian territory may not be happy with the government they may also not be happy be conscripted by the FSB backed terrorist occupiers either to fight against their brothers. But it doesn't matter because not everyone needs to support a government for it to be legitimate.

> These are all facts my friend. Not propaganda.

None of these are facts.

> I wish you would take a more rational and less emotional view of the situation but I can't say I'd do differently in your circumstance. I am concerned where the irrationality leads however. It has so far caused nothing but trouble for Ukraine. And the trouble is spreading.

The most rational view of this situation is to send the heaviest weapons possible to Ukraine, because the only rational way this ends is with a lot of dead Russian soldiers, and that needs to happen as soon as possible.

[btilly]

You are not even be attempting to discuss this in good faith. You attribute ridiculous statements to me, such as that the breakaway republics do not exist, and there was universal support in Ukraine for Euromaiden, just so you have something to argue against. You throw complex topics such as the Crimea referendum out there. (For the record, the 97% support that Russia claimed is clearly false, but a majority support is probably true. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum for more.) And then you disingenuously ask that if I don't disagree with these, which do I disagree with?

Meanwhile you continue to avoid calling Russian genocide by its proper name. You continue to claim that Russia had legal justification. You continue to deny the truth of Russian actions, and continue to blame Ukraine's situation on the West rather than on the country doing the invading.

The truth is that it is a tragedy that Ukrainians are faced with the choice of fighting for their sovereignty or submitting to a genocidal Russian oppression. The record of Russian rule being terrible is supported by extensive history, current events, and ongoing Russian policy. By contrast the specter of Germany launching another invasion through Ukraine is rather ridiculous given the current culture of the German people and government. And Russia wore that excuse rather thin after using it to justify decades of tyranny over the Eastern Bloc during the cold war.

I wish you would portray my position honestly, engage with the truth of Russian crimes, and start accepting facts. I also wish you wouldn't support a genocidal dictatorship.