[btilly]

Genocide has a specific definition, and Russian actions meet that definition. This is genocide, and it is immoral for you to avoid accepting that.

The accepted definition is in Article 2 of

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-...

Russian propaganda amply demonstrates their intent. The physical part is also well-established. For example Russian filtration camps have been use to "process" then relocate over a million Ukrainians. Including over 250,000 children who will be raised with propaganda about not being Ukrainian.

You may prefer mealymouthed substitutes for calling a spade a spade. But I condemn you for normalizing genocide by refusing to use its proper name.

[mythrwy]

This isn't genocide, even by your very strained definition. It maybe becomes something like that though if this keeps up.

Maybe we in the west should stop being stupid. Just a thought.

[btilly]

My "very strained definition" is from the UN treaty on genocide. This has been the authoritative definition of genocide in international law for over 70 years. That you do not accept the definition says more about you than the definition.

The first condition is intent, specifically intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Russia has provided ample evidence. For example https://uacrisis.org/en/justification-of-genocide-russia-has... is a translation into English of an article from Russian media laying out what "denazification" actually would entail. The following passage is typical and demonstrates intent:

Denazification will inevitably also be a de-Ukrainization – a rejection of the large-scale artificial inflation of the ethnic component of self-identification of the population of the territories of historical Little Russia (Malorossiya) and New Russia (Novorossiya), begun by the Soviet authorities.

There are many similar statements from all corners of Russian controlled media. Intent is abundantly clear.

As for the second component, we need to establish a physical element. Many Russian war crimes qualify. But I specifically pointed to https://www.state.gov/russias-filtration-operations-forced-d... because the forced relocation of children for the purpose of erasing their ethnic identity is directly listed in the treaty.

Do you still refuse to acknowledge that Russia has met the definition of genocide established in international law by treaty? If so, then on what grounds do you argue that this ISN'T genocide?

[idiotsecant]

You seem really defensive about this for some reason.

[mythrwy]

That seems to be a veiled accusation. Maybe you have heard about Russian bots on TV or something.

Let me clarify my motives for you.

I am not happy with the approach the West has taken in towards this conflict. Most particularly the coup in 2014 and the urging of non settlement early. It has cost the lives of thousands of young Ukrainian men. And for very little purpose. The formerly Russian/ high Russian population areas are going back to Russia. Full stop. This was extremely obvious from the beginning. There was an equitable path forward early, even the return of formerly Russian territories did not have to happen. But the West has become blind and stupid as well as belligerent. Reality is going to smack them squarely in the face soon I think and no amount of propaganda will prevent it.

It did not have to go down like this. A lot of lives could have been saved and suffering prevented. I don't control what Russia does (and I agree, they are looking for geo strategic and economic gain, not to "defend poor Russian speakers"), but anyway, I expect a whole let better from nominal liberal democracies. If you are going to be callous and continue with the murder and deception that has been the defining characteristic the Western order, at least be smart about it. But we have been both callous and stupid. I'm not happy about it. I'll be even less happy if it heats up even more killing millions.

Also, I don't really like extreme bullshit propaganda. I try to see the truth and proclaim the truth best as I can understand it.

Hopefully that clarifies my position.

[_kbh_]

> I am not happy with the approach the West has taken in towards this conflict. Most particularly the coup in 2014 and the urging of non settlement early. It has cost the lives of thousands of young Ukrainian men. And for very little purpose. The formerly Russian/ high Russian population areas are going back to Russia. Full stop. This was extremely obvious from the beginning. There was an equitable path forward early, even the return of formerly Russian territories did not have to happen. But the West has become blind and stupid as well as belligerent. Reality is going to smack them squarely in the face soon I think and no amount of propaganda will prevent it.

All of Ukraine, will go back to Ukraine, this includes Crimea. The Russians will leave or die, the Ukrainians have only just started getting HIMARS and M270s and they are already slaughtering Russian ammo depots and command and control centres.

When the NASAMS turn up the Russian missiles and planes will start falling out of the sky at a much higher rate. Then the net that these two systems provide will expand out as the Ukrainians push back.

Russias army doctrine is setup in such a way that practically everything is centralised, its why they occupied the same airfield over 20 times, even though the Ukrainians kept attacking it. This centralised doctrine is highly suspect ile to weapons like HIMARs and M270s as they target the bases and depots that the Russians are working from.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Chornobaivka_attacks

The easiest way to save the most lives in this conflict is to get Russia to leave Ukraine as soon as possible.

[idiotsecant]

Your position is that the correct thing for a nominal liberal democracy to do is to encourage another nominal liberal democracy to give it's sovereign territory to a government that is, to put it charitably, ruled by executive decree? Because...they want it?

[mythrwy]

I'm not sure how much of an understanding you have about what is going on there.

The Russian speaking areas do not want to be part of Ukraine after the 2014 coup. The one that was full of Western intelligence and US politicians, including the wife of Iraq war proponent Robert Kagan who is currently serving under Biden.

Many of these areas were part of Russia up until the Soviet Union, most particularly Crimea which was part of Russia from the 1700s until 1954. The people there are Russian. And, there wasn't really an issue until the coup which outset a democratically elected president. After that Russia took Crimea back (with a vote by the locals for whatever that is worth). The other breakaway republics were indiscriminately shelled for over 8 years. Over 14,000 people were killed which is nearly 3 times the amount of civilian casualties Russia has inflicted to date.

Also, Russia has been invaded along this (open) route a few times over the past couple of hundred years. Hitler and Napoleon. Millions died. Putins older brother in fact died as an infant during the Nazi siege.

So when Ukraine starts talking about getting nukes, joining NATO, have literal Nazi brigades attacking the breakaway republics and amassing hundreds of thousands of troops in the East to attack the breakaway republics and "get Crimea back" the Russians will just sit there? No, they will not. Now, again, their other aim is to get exclusive control of the Black Sea and take the oil and agricultural rich areas of the east, as well as increase their population. And we handed them a figleaf like dummies. They have a lot of legal ground. Putin is actually a lawyer (a fact lots of people don't know).

Let the people chose their destiny. Like we did in Kosovo when we wanted to put an airbase there. But no, that doesn't apply in this case. So it has heated up to this. I hope it settles down but the longer it goes on the worse for Ukraine. We should be urging peaceful settlement, not adding fuel to the fire.

[btilly]

You absolutely DON'T understand what is going on there.

The President of Ukraine is one of those Russian speaking Ukrainians that you're talking about. Why don't you ask him whether he would prefer to be part of Ukraine or Russia?

According to polls, Russian speaking Ukrainians overwhelmingly want to be in an independent Ukraine. And the longer the fighting goes on, the stronger that support gets. Strip away Russian propaganda, and "Russian speaking Ukrainians want to be in Russia" turns out to be a fantasy.

It is likewise only in Russian propaganda that Ukraine was looking to get nukes, or was on a course to join NATO. The "breakaway republics" in fact were invaded by Russia in 2014. Yes, the "green men" weren't wearing their Russian military insignia, but nobody was actually fooled. And satellite photos confirmed that the artillery was being fired from Russian territory. See https://iphronline.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Joint-repo... if you doubt me.

I'm not happy with everything we did involving Euromaiden. But Russia had set a democratically elected leader on a course to take over and become a Russia-friendly dictator. Ukraine need look no farther than Belarus to see how that story turns out. Describing it as the overthrow of a democratic regime is at best a half-truth. Probably no more than a quarter truth.

When it comes to legal issues, Russia HAS no legal ground other than a military, a willingness to lie, and other people's unwillingness to confront them.

Let's talk about the whole Nazi thing. It is true that the Azov battalion started as white supremacists, and got absorbed into Ukraine's military. (Then toned down the whole white supremacist thing a lot.) However this problem exists on both sides, and there are likely more white supremacists fighting on the Russian side than the Ukrainian. If this comes as a surprise to you, start with https://www.rferl.org/a/russian-neo-nazis-fighting-ukraine/3... for some of the basics. Worse yet, Russia has actively solicited, and received, international support from white supremacist organizations. Supporters like Steve Bannon opened doors, and are part of how we have Russian propaganda being spewed over Fox News by people like Steve Hannity.

Despite Russian rhetoric about "denazification", it is Russia that has sought out and obtained support from neo-Nazis and those sympathetic to them.

And so we see that again and again, you are consistently misinformed. You've swallowed Russian propaganda on issue after issue. This is in addition to your unwillingness to call a spade a spade and recognize Russian genocide as what it is.