[excieve]

As a Ukrainian, I sincerely thank you for writing this.

It is often disheartening to see how many people of HN don't realise what is happening (and, frankly, has been happening for 8 years) and then read cold opinions devoid of empathy. What is the compromise when the other side's goal is extermination?

[mythrwy]

I don't see the goal being extermination at all. If that were the case the tactics used would be much different.

Control, integration, subjugation, colonization, there are a lot of other words that are more fitting without the "genocide" hyperbole.

[excieve]

They're actually quite explicit in what the goal is, at least in propaganda towards the internal audience[0]. If one does equate a Ukrainian to a "nazi" that must be exterminated, burns this into the minds for years, builds a chauvinistic version of history to frame it into then the rest comes out naturally — don't even need an order.

The behaviour of the Russian army towards the non-combatants so far has been aligned to what you could expect of this concept — mass murder, rape as a weapon, "filtration" camps, forced deportations, burnt ground tactics. These are not singular cases, it's the pattern everywhere the Russian army is or has been active.

It's not even the first attempt in the history — the last one was less than a century ago.

[0]: https://twitter.com/sumlenny/status/1510910740261134338

[mythrwy]

That's unadulterated bullshit and I think both of us know it.

"mass rape, mass murder etc".

Look, I don't think the Russians are innocent in this at all. Obviously they have economic incentive and don't mind killing some folks to get what they are after. They don't want to kill everyone though or they would act very differently.

It's not genocide. Very simple. Even by a stretch of the word to include removing Nazi elements from the armed services.

[nisa]

Unfortunately it's not bullshit. I wish it was - read the summary of the OSCE report: https://osce.usmission.gov/response-to-moscow-mechanism-repo...

It's even worse.

[mythrwy]

Yep. The Russians are posting the same kind of thing for their populations to consume. I fully believe neither.

Here is what I do know. As of last week less then 5,000 Ukrainian civilians have been killed so far in the campaign. Contrast that with the US did during Iraq, or even in Raqqa. Was that genocide? No, it was just we didn't care. Which is pretty disturbing especially now as we try to proclaim moral high ground and talk about atrocities.

This is not genocide either and false flags and exaggerations abound on all sides.

Edit: responding to the comment below because I'm obviously on a time out at this point:

`As delivered by Ambassador Michael Carpenter`

This is a guy, with a strategic national interest, who addressed the org you are talking about with some claims. Not an series of independently verified facts.

Have bad things happened? Yes. It's a war. Have Russian soldiers done some bad things? Almost certainly. Is there widespread or systemic murder of civilians and rape by Russian troops? No, that is not happening. And it makes sense as it would be counterproductive to Russia's aims.

In short. Unadulterated bullshit.

[nisa]

> `As delivered by Ambassador Michael Carpenter`

This is summary post from some ambassador. Read the original report at the OSCE website: https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/3/e/522616.pdf

These are independent verified facts.

[nisa]

This is from the OSCE - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_for_Security_and_... - Russia is a member of the OSCE. This not some think-tank or media exaggeration. This is as serious and legit as possible.

[_kbh_]

> Have bad things happened? Yes. It's a war. Have Russian soldiers done some bad things? Almost certainly. Is there widespread or systemic murder of civilians and rape by Russian troops?.

They literally ask for permission to rape the Ukrainians from their partners.

https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-rape-russian-soldier-wife-by...

They literally executed civilians in Bucha.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucha_massacre

If you want to learn more about the Russians armed forces sexual crimes in Ukraine you can find a depressingly large article here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_violence_in_the_2022_Ru...

> This is not genocide either and false flags and exaggerations abound on all sides.

It is literally genocide per the UN definition of the word.

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

Killing members of the group;

Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Russians are easily doing at least the last (forced transfer of children) and are arguably doing the first, and second based on the terrible conditions they leave the cities they level in leaving the Ukrainians to die in the street.

> No, that is not happening. And it makes sense as it would be counterproductive to Russia's aims.

The rape and deportation of locals to Russia is par for the course for the USSR's and Russia's conflicts. They did the exact same thing in Chechnya. If you want to learn more about the terrible crimes that Russia has committed in Ukraine and past wars (like Chechnya) look up what a 'filtration camp' is.

This isn't counterproductive to Russia's aims, it _is_ one of Russias aims.

> In short. Unadulterated bullshit.

In short, it's the Russian army doing Russian army things, at this point it seems they are incapable of conducting wars without committing a tonne of war crimes.

[idiotsecant]

> "mass rape, mass murder etc".

> That's unadulterated bullshit and I think both of us know it.

I think there's some pretty well documented cases of both of those things within the past few months alone. I'm not sure it's bullshit at all.

[excieve]

I think it might be difficult to understand if you're not living in this context yourself.

In this context the Russian soldiers are telling you that you're a "Nazi" because you're speaking Ukrainian, served in the army (no matter how long ago), or have a Ukrainian flag in your home, a tattoo or a haircut they don't like, or just camouflage-styled clothes and therefore don't deserve to live. A shot in the head usually comes after, sometimes worse than that.

This is a story of _each_ village in my area near Kyiv that came under the occupation for just a month. Probably would have been one for my family too if we hadn't fled to safety in time as we'd be considered, in your words, "Nazi elements" too.

Do I really need to link the photos of mass graves, bodies hastily burned to conceal the evidence and accounts of the survivors? Even this is a small fraction as we're not seeing what's happening in the currently occupied areas (there are only some accounts).

How different does it need to be? Does the pointless flattening of Mariupol fall under your definition? Or do we need to wait and see what happens if Russia wins this and there's no real visibility at all?

[dragonwriter]

> It's not genocide. Very simple.

It is genocide, very simple; heck, Putin is pretty up front about the intent to destroy the Ukrainian people as a people, because he views the existence of that identity distinct from Russia as anathema.

And even without Putin’s statements the piles of evidence from the acts on the ground admit no other explanation.

[Melting_Harps]

> And even without Putin’s statements the piles of evidence from the acts on the ground admit no other explanation.

Bucha, Irpin, Kharkiv, Mariupol etc... It's all there, anyone denying this is either utterly blind or a Russian apologist, these are all war crimes. And Putin's (convoluted) rhetoric has arrived at a single point: that Ukraine are not their own people or culture.

The latest Russian missile attack was on a civilian shopping center FFS! This isn't war conventional between militaries, this is terrorism on civilians when Ukraine attacks on Russian munition depots in Ukrainian territory or some other military target is successful.

Russia has bombed Lviv and Kyiv as well when similar successful military strikes took place with civilian casualties.

The truth is that this is really looking less like a proxy war and more like a hyper-localized World War, if Iran is really supplying UAVs to Russia and China and India is buying their energy to bypass sanctions than the BRICS alliance looks like the geo-political strata is shaking out; one cannot help but feel that if this isn't fought qnd won then Taiwan will be the CCPs next move as it is starting to crack under it's own myopic weight as the Zero COVID policy is taking it's toll and making internal civil war inevitable as the bank freezes/bail-ins are happening there.

[ceejayoz]

You don't have to exterminate the population (although Russia's been there, done that in Ukraine) to exterminate the country as a going concern, or the national identity.

[_ph_]

The Russians pretty much killed a lot of the population of the occupied territories, which hadn't fled in time. A lot of the rest has been abducted to Russia, possibly Siberia.

[HKH2]

In the Donbas? Proof?

[mythrwy]

No they haven't. That's untrue.

[alangibson]

Check out Russian state TV. They've been very explicit in saying they don't think 'Ukraine', Ukranians or even Ukranian language actually exists.

[moistly]

I suggest that instead of using your throwaway account to post objectively untrue bullshit, you instead not post at all. HN does not benefit when you pull stupid stunts like this. Be a better person.

[btilly]

Genocide has a specific definition, and Russian actions meet that definition. This is genocide, and it is immoral for you to avoid accepting that.

The accepted definition is in Article 2 of

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-...

Russian propaganda amply demonstrates their intent. The physical part is also well-established. For example Russian filtration camps have been use to "process" then relocate over a million Ukrainians. Including over 250,000 children who will be raised with propaganda about not being Ukrainian.

You may prefer mealymouthed substitutes for calling a spade a spade. But I condemn you for normalizing genocide by refusing to use its proper name.

[mythrwy]

This isn't genocide, even by your very strained definition. It maybe becomes something like that though if this keeps up.

Maybe we in the west should stop being stupid. Just a thought.

[btilly]

My "very strained definition" is from the UN treaty on genocide. This has been the authoritative definition of genocide in international law for over 70 years. That you do not accept the definition says more about you than the definition.

The first condition is intent, specifically intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Russia has provided ample evidence. For example https://uacrisis.org/en/justification-of-genocide-russia-has... is a translation into English of an article from Russian media laying out what "denazification" actually would entail. The following passage is typical and demonstrates intent:

Denazification will inevitably also be a de-Ukrainization – a rejection of the large-scale artificial inflation of the ethnic component of self-identification of the population of the territories of historical Little Russia (Malorossiya) and New Russia (Novorossiya), begun by the Soviet authorities.

There are many similar statements from all corners of Russian controlled media. Intent is abundantly clear.

As for the second component, we need to establish a physical element. Many Russian war crimes qualify. But I specifically pointed to https://www.state.gov/russias-filtration-operations-forced-d... because the forced relocation of children for the purpose of erasing their ethnic identity is directly listed in the treaty.

Do you still refuse to acknowledge that Russia has met the definition of genocide established in international law by treaty? If so, then on what grounds do you argue that this ISN'T genocide?

[idiotsecant]

You seem really defensive about this for some reason.

[mythrwy]

That seems to be a veiled accusation. Maybe you have heard about Russian bots on TV or something.

Let me clarify my motives for you.

I am not happy with the approach the West has taken in towards this conflict. Most particularly the coup in 2014 and the urging of non settlement early. It has cost the lives of thousands of young Ukrainian men. And for very little purpose. The formerly Russian/ high Russian population areas are going back to Russia. Full stop. This was extremely obvious from the beginning. There was an equitable path forward early, even the return of formerly Russian territories did not have to happen. But the West has become blind and stupid as well as belligerent. Reality is going to smack them squarely in the face soon I think and no amount of propaganda will prevent it.

It did not have to go down like this. A lot of lives could have been saved and suffering prevented. I don't control what Russia does (and I agree, they are looking for geo strategic and economic gain, not to "defend poor Russian speakers"), but anyway, I expect a whole let better from nominal liberal democracies. If you are going to be callous and continue with the murder and deception that has been the defining characteristic the Western order, at least be smart about it. But we have been both callous and stupid. I'm not happy about it. I'll be even less happy if it heats up even more killing millions.

Also, I don't really like extreme bullshit propaganda. I try to see the truth and proclaim the truth best as I can understand it.

Hopefully that clarifies my position.

[_kbh_]

> I am not happy with the approach the West has taken in towards this conflict. Most particularly the coup in 2014 and the urging of non settlement early. It has cost the lives of thousands of young Ukrainian men. And for very little purpose. The formerly Russian/ high Russian population areas are going back to Russia. Full stop. This was extremely obvious from the beginning. There was an equitable path forward early, even the return of formerly Russian territories did not have to happen. But the West has become blind and stupid as well as belligerent. Reality is going to smack them squarely in the face soon I think and no amount of propaganda will prevent it.

All of Ukraine, will go back to Ukraine, this includes Crimea. The Russians will leave or die, the Ukrainians have only just started getting HIMARS and M270s and they are already slaughtering Russian ammo depots and command and control centres.

When the NASAMS turn up the Russian missiles and planes will start falling out of the sky at a much higher rate. Then the net that these two systems provide will expand out as the Ukrainians push back.

Russias army doctrine is setup in such a way that practically everything is centralised, its why they occupied the same airfield over 20 times, even though the Ukrainians kept attacking it. This centralised doctrine is highly suspect ile to weapons like HIMARs and M270s as they target the bases and depots that the Russians are working from.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Chornobaivka_attacks

The easiest way to save the most lives in this conflict is to get Russia to leave Ukraine as soon as possible.

[idiotsecant]

Your position is that the correct thing for a nominal liberal democracy to do is to encourage another nominal liberal democracy to give it's sovereign territory to a government that is, to put it charitably, ruled by executive decree? Because...they want it?

[Scarblac]

They killed most of the population of Mariupol that wasn't able to flee, shell civilians continuously, have deported millions of Ukrainians to Russia so far where children are taken apart from their parents and the parents are taken to "filtration camps" where many are shot and the rest relocated to the Far East.

On top of the rhetoric that Ukrainians as a people shouldn't exist.

There is no doubt that it is genocide and termination.

[Spooky23]

Genocide doesn’t require camps.

I’m not sure why these distinctions are relevant. In my mind, if an army is indiscriminately bombing and shelling my city, it sure feels like a genocidal act.