Ask HN: Why do companies not want to hire me?

[WhyNotHireMe]

I have an atypical engineering background (worked at an agency, ended up leaving agency, leaving for a different job, but then the client reached out to me directly and I've been working with them direct for over 3 years, total working with them over 8.

I'm applying to frontend but can do backend jobs as well. Whenever I send my resume, I share my credentials and high profile projects I've worked on.

I've worked with many big fortune500 names, but whenever I apply for frontend jobs it seems like they just don't care and I haven't gotten a single response to over 10+ applications and different variations of resume.

I feel I'm missing something fundamental because I've had such a great relationship with this client, I've been told I'm an extremely unique and valued developer, but again I just don't get past sending in my resume and getting rejection emails. I can work through and solve leetcode challenges without memorizing, I've started a few failed small businesses.

What am I doing wrong?

[nickmyersdt]

As a hiring manager, it's probably nothing you're doing wrong. There are so many applications for roles, that most get a cursory glance in the first instance. I try and do all the initial application reviews myself, and to look properly at each applicant however (a) I know I'm in a minority and (b) there's such variability in how candidates present themselves that despite my best efforts I go a bit blind after too many.

If it would help, I'd happily take a look at your resume and see if I can offer any advice on that would have worked on me (whether that advice is more universally useful I cannot tell you).

There are many reasons for rejecting applications, and the specifics about you probably aren't even in the top 5. Don't take it personally and play the numbers game (high volume of applications) or target hiring managers to get traction (otherwise you're likely to have your paperwork reviewes by a recruiter, agent or "hiring team" who are keyword matching at best).

[spearingthehead]

It is a strange problem indeed. I'm in a similar job seeking position as OP having difficulty convincing some companies that my lack of certain concrete knowledge should be a non-issue, when you consider the true spirit of what a software engineer is not what you know, but how you come to know things and your ability to adapt to them.

As a SWE, I've been told many times that the ability to pick up new techs and languages should be your bread and butter, and I believe this strongly. If you understand the basics of network requests and REST patterns then most web frameworks are the same. Frameworks are just abstractions on top of the basics. In the real world of job searching, nobody seems to care. They prefer specific names for keywords.

I've also been playing the numbers name for far too long that seems like I'm falling into a sunk cost fallacy. Unemployed since late 2019 and sent out nearly 2000 cold applications. Given a set of inputs defining job experience, what is someone's probability of getting an offer within the next week after 20 applications? After 100? Or after 500?

I tend to hate solving problems that give no visible signs of progress towards seeing the end, but at least when I do these kinds of problems at work, I'm getting paid for it. Right now I am trying to solve such a problem but without compensation, without much motivation.

Getting a job offer right now is biggest challenge that I've encountered in my life. I have not been as confused or clueless, nothing I've done for my career ever came close to stumping me. And it also should NOT have to be the biggest challenge in my life. Better candidates should be things like, how to organize and manage a team for a very large work project, or how to plan your savings strategy for an early retirement. Finding a job should be among the most basic challenges, not super complicated.

[nickmyersdt]

I think the core problem is that there isn't a reliable way to assess a person's SWE skills. Two people can look the same on paper but have wildly different capabilities for solving problems with software.

So many companies try so many different ways to establish competence during application and interview but they are all badly flawed in some way.

Add to that the fact that no two SWE teams are the same, and to be effective as an IC you need to be effective as a team member, and it gets really hard.

The true test really comes during the probation period (which I think of as the real interview) and if all things were possible, I'd hire many more people off the back of resume and interview with intent to retain those that are able to perform at the level they pitched themselves. There's always a bit of "leveling up" as people climb the ladder, so a little bit of over-stating one's own skills is to be expected, and that's where the core capability of "being able to learn quickly" gets proven.

Unfortunately budgets and my own capacity don't allow me to take this approach.

I'd also say that as someone who has led or managed SWE teams for a long time now, SWEs do love to argue for their favourite bit of tech. After all, if they've used it before, they'll be more productive with it (perhaps). However that drops us right back to "the list of technologies you've worked with" mattering more than "your ability to pick up skills".

I do wish there was a better quicker way, that could not be games or bluffed, to hire people. Many startups are trying to solve it, but none (AFAIK) have scratches the surface.

I think (IME) that getting a job is complicated because (a) it's very hard to determine a SWE skills by resume and interview (b) lots of people over represent their skills (c) hiring is probably the most critical thing an organisation does (d) SWE has become more complicated over time, rather than less, leading to proliferation and speed of introduction of new languages, frameworks, tools and libraries.

[joshxyz]

those are rookie numbers, you gotta pump those numbers up.

i send 20 to 30 applications a day. i assume only 10% will respond. of which 1/3 i am underqualified, 1/3 i'm qualified but mismatch due to optics (biases) or culture or personality, 1/3 im the perfect fit.

it is all about the frame too, when you're tenured you are the buyer not the seller. you ask them what's their best offer based on your experience and their strict hiring budgets. you decide to say yes or no.

[spearingthehead]

Whether or not 10 applications is inadequate, I found it to be very subjective and dependent on their resume and performance factors. For me, just like you conclude, 10 is indeed very little, because I've submitted nearly one thousand applications last year alone.

But I know that others have gotten an offer (or even several) after sending only a dozen or so, and so to them 10 applications might be "just enough". Some have even gotten new jobs multiple times without cold applying, where referrals are their way in and cold applying became history to them.

[willcipriano]

Ten isn't enough if you aren't getting responses.

OP try 10 a week for six months and if you still can't find a job post here again (you won't).

[joshxyz]

yea some may be lucky and thats out of your control.

some may be more qualified than you and thats a timing issue, also out of your control.

understanding the numbers game that the more you play the more chances of winning, that is something in your control.

[fpdavis]

10+ applications isn't that many... Over the years I have sent out well over 100 resumes with no responses. I am a hiring manager and for a given software engineering position will receive 60+ applicants. In a different area and industry I would probably get double or even triple that many applicants. We don't use any type of automated filter. Of those, there are usually less than 15 that I feel are a good fit for the position. Even 15 is too many for me to contact and begin the interview process with so I have to narrow it down even further.

I can't tell you why your resume has been rejected without them contacting you, but assuming it is a well written and accurate resume, it is because there were other candidates that were a better fit for the position. Meaning they had direct experience with the technologies involved, worked in similar industries, they were physically close, didn't appear to be over qualified (I wouldn't bump them off the list for this without first talking with them), and were well rounded. Some things can get your resume rejected quickly by the hiring manager, this could include not being local to the company (even for remote work if there are plenty of candidates that are close), missing experience, spelling errors, poor layout, poor communication, over qualified, non-relevant experience being included, stuck in the same position/job too long, etc. I don't even want to get into age, gender, and race discrimination which can come through in the resume in the form of dates and names.

Bottom line is, for best chances, you have to customize your resume for each job you apply for. This is time consuming and usually doesn't feel like something you should have to do or that it pays off.

[PaulHoule]

The economy is really in flux right now.

On one hand there are the shortages, on the other hand many retailers have bought inventory that they could buy assuming people would want what they can get instead of get what they want.

At the micro level there are some companies thriving but I think if you go higher up to the "commanding heights" people have a wider view of the craziness and more fear. So I think a lot of firms are slowing down on hiring right now.

[nickd2001]

Are there specific tech skills you have, which you know for sure prospective employers are actually looking for, which are in short supply (not enough people with the skills) and growing demand, and its blindingly obvious from your approach e:g used those skills in recent job(s), have GitHub links , its at the top of your resume & LinkedIn ? I think you'll get somewhere if you do that. To people saying 10 applications is nothing, well sure if its a scatter-gun approach, but I believe 2 or 3 very targeted approaches to relevant jobs is more effective. Make it easy for a busy / lazy/ not clever recruiter to match "We need people with X" to "looks like they've got X"

[sharemywin]

Have you thought about talking to a recruiter and looking at contract to hire opportunities?

usually get better feedback and a better feel for the opportunity.

[BergTheBold]

Is this no responses to 10+ applications or 10+ interviews? Sometimes companies just get a lot of responses and can't get through them all. I've helped sort through resumes at my company before and there were times we got dozens, which can be very time-consuming to review. I agree with the idea of talking to a recruiter.

[WhyNotHireMe]

10+ applications. Never worked with a recruiter before but will give it a shot

[fendy3002]

0 response out of 10 is normal. Usually I get an influx of 4-6 invitation over 20 applications, or even as little as 0-2.

Recruiters give better chance to land an interview since they have direct contact with company, and afaik usually company will prefer to process recruiters candidate first.

Job application is a numbers game, just keep applying and get as many interview as you can. I thought I even got lucky landing on current job in 3 months looking.

[rossdavidh]

1) usually, it isn't you, it's them 2) one advantage of a recruiter is that they have an incentive to tell you what you can do to make a better impression, since they get a cut if you're hired, so you could try asking a recruiter or three for feedback on your resume, interviews, etc.

[getdajerb]

I have a weird background also. I was a self taught software engineer. I learned very fast and aggressively. Then I did a lot of contracting, random attempted side projects and failed startups, short stints here and there. The net result is my resume didn’t look too good. I noticed my colleagues who had well regarded 4 year CS degrees were always inundated in recruiters. It really bothered me because I knew I could work much harder and outlearn them, I was willing to take jobs they weren’t. However, I feel that despite engineering being “in high demand,” there is significant pickiness, they really do want easily identifiable “talent” and would rather fight over that then look at oddballs.

I think front end is a bit of a sewer. It’s why I got out of mobile development. You are competing with boot camp grads, outsourcing and the never ending churn of frameworks.

No one can tell who “is good” at front end development and in fact they don’t actually care. In a recession environment, whatever you are doing, it pays to head in the direction of rarer and harder skills.

Another thought is you might want to look at startups or medium sized companies in general. The reality is that a disordinate amount of focus goes to the top end companies. There are huge numbers of startups and middle tier companies who don’t get the same level of applications or attention.

Startups actually do care who is really good because they have to survive, at least the good ones do.

I also worked on so-called “high profile projects for Fortune 500 clients.” I found that no one actually really cared. Engineers are looked at as cogs. They have a checklist, will you fix my exact situation. No? Next.

You would be smart to look carefully at the resumes and do a realistic assessment. Do you have the exact skills that these companies want? Recruiters use checklists. It’s stupid. But they will just go - do your ten skills match the ten on my req…

Anyways, you may also find many jobs are stale. Just because it’s on LinkedIn or whatever doesn’t mean it’s active. Lot of dead postings out there.

You may have better luck doing informational calls with VPs of Engineering. Just say: “hey, I’m thinking about making a change and haven’t decided what’s next. I really found your tech interesting, do you have 15 minutes for a chat?

Direct outreach works, keep it casual, not depeserate, or needy. Make it clear it’s informational. If a VP engineering or CTO tells the recruiter to look at you, they have to.

Skip the recruiter checklists.

[lostdog]

Get your resume reviewed, either by a friend, subreddit, or pro. "Extremely unique" could be working against you, since it's difficult for companies to decide if you're a good fit.

But 10 applications is a very low number.

[dokein]

We are actively looking to hire frontend (see my prior comment history).

If you send me your resume (hiring at smarterdx dot com), we can either proceed down the interview path or I promise to give you feedback as to why not!

[speedgoose]

You could also try to use your network to find jobs. Ask your friends and old coworkers about who is looking for someone.

[ilovhn]

Dude 10+ applications is nothing.