Ask HN: Burnt out developer trying to move out of Iran, advices?

[throwawaymg]

To sum it up quickly

Living in Iran

38yo/married/no kids

University drop out

Burnt out developer because employer asks you to finish the job quicker and quicker and then throws more work at you without any perks/changes to your salary

Have been working as a bookkeeper/sort of an accountant for 5 years

No savings/hard to save much when your salary is 350USD/mo

My wife has a masters degree in accounting and a good resume

Good skills in Vanilla JS/HTML/CSS

Viable skills in C#/T-SQL/a lot more

No resumes

Planning to migrate to Europe/US/Australia in next 5 years because Iran is on edge of economic/social/life-basics collapse.

1. My main question is: Can I work as a developer and not be under pressure every minute?

2. If I get hired as a developer, can I have a life outside my work or I'm gonna have to learn the new hipster framework after work hours for the rest of my life?

3. Is it worth cutting my salary by 2 days a week to work on open source projects to build up a resume?

4. I'm fine learning say, COBOL. Should I go that way?

5. Am I better looking for other jobs?

6. Any advices?

P.s I don't think I can do paid remote work for foreign countries until I get a second passport since Iran is sanctioned and I probably can't have a bank account in western countries.

[Nextgrid]

Just a counterpoint to the comments who talk positively about the COBOL idea:

When it comes to COBOL, the main problem isn't actually the programming language itself, it's everything else around it. Most companies who need COBOL have a horrible tech culture & situation and are stuck with a pile of shitty, undocumented COBOL dating back decades.

If you're going to be doing COBOL, your problem won't be COBOL, it will be the archeology that you will have to do to reverse-engineer the existing system, the pressure you'll be under to deliver something fast under those constraints and the blame you'll take when it inevitably explodes (forget about CI/testing or a staging environment).

COBOL is not just a programming language but an entire ecosystem completely different from mainstream computing. Forget SQL DBs, forget UNIX terminals - you'll need to learn how to use & develop for mainframes - it's a closed ecosystem guarded by IBM which means there aren't many free resources available to learn from or get help, and it is so different that the skills you'll learn won't be transferrable to modern, non-mainframe development.

Furthermore, all of the above doesn't actually pay that well. I'm sure you've heard all the media attention about COBOL and how systems are failing all over the place because there are no developers to maintain them - well that's a lie, the problem isn't that there are no developers to maintain them, it's that there are no developers to maintain them at the price the company is willing to pay.

Finally, COBOL is mostly still used by governments or large companies which would be very hard to get into due to your origin.

[ASalazarMX]

On the other hand, corporate COBOL archeology is orders of magnitude easier than say, corporate Java or .Net archeology.

Many companies that use COBOL/RPG use IBM i (formerly known as AS/400) computers, and you can get hands-on practice for free in Pub400 (https://pub400.com). The salaries are decent but not great, and the platform only changes a bit with each OS release, so you can build up mastery without burning out.

[mangoTangoBango]

Have you looked at the Canadian express entry program? You would be making less $ that you can make in the USA but it is easier to deal with immigration, and that is still much, much more than $350/mo. Could probably work remotely for a company in the USA after that.

There are plenty of companies that like using their same old .NET or Java, you don't need newest JS...

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/se...

[NhanH]

Express entry is nigh impossible at 38 years old, no degree and not much in term of verifiable experience in the correct industry.

OP’s wife being the main application to Australia is potentially more possible, though I would still classify as “very improbable”

[remh]

Hi. Not in a similar situation whatsoever but I've worked in both Europe and the US.

1. Yes you can, developers are still in high demand meaning the relationship employer / employee is not as one sided as in other jobs. That being said, if you get a visa sponsored by a company it can change that relationship. There are still lots of good companies out there though.

2. Depends on your specialty, some aspects of tech do evolve much faster than others. Frontend development tooling is one of them and it does require to stay up-to-date-ish. But usually it's not that hard to learn a new framework if you have solid experience in the domain. Backend, infrastructure development tends to have longer cycles.

3. If you are already cash constrained I wouldn't. Can you build your resume from your work experience?

4. COBOL is a niche technology, not dying anytime soon but you would constrain yourself to a small number of industries and companies. I'm biased by my own industry but web development (typescript) or backend development (go/rust/python) seem to be skills that would cover a broader set of companies.

5. Not sure how it is in Iran but in the US / Europe software development is likely one of the cushiest jobs you can get and one that has the biggest chances of being sponsored for a visa. Sure there can be lots of pressure from time to time, bad managers, crunch etc, but overall we have it easy compared to lots of other industries / jobs.

6. If you actually believe that "Iran is on edge of economic/social/life-basics collapse." my advice would be to try to get out asap. It will likely be a couple of years of hard work (to apply to companies, get a visa etc) but will be worth it down the road.

Good luck.

[throwawaymg]

Do you consider getting a sponsored Visa a bad idea? Because otherwise I would have to make like $40,000-50,000, to support us for few months, get out of Iran and then look for jobs.

[NhanH]

Getting a sponsored visa should be a good idea for you (in fact without it, you have to pretty much cross out Canada or Australia from your list).

[goodpoint]

Not many companies are going to hire and sponsor a visa for a COBOL developer with zero previous work experience.

Instead, you have js work experience.

[flodet]

A lot of great advice in this thread.

One more though, your origin (Iran) is unfortunately not doing you a favor. If you decide to follow an industry or alike, consider that you might fight some ressentiments / legal restrictions. For example, public, manufacturing or similar industries most likely will be very cautious at hiring someone from Iran.

[throwawaymg]

Will I be able to find a good job outside those sectors?

[1991g]

Yes, absolutely. Lots of tech jobs (maybe the majority?) are not involved with national security.

[ramesh31]

1. Yes, there are a ton of normal 9-5 dev jobs in the west

2. Learn React + any backend technology and you're fine

3. No. People don't really care about open source if you have experience (unless it is a highly notable project).

4. No. Stick with JS.

5. No. Software is the easiest best paying career by a long shot. Doubly so for someone without a degree.

6. Move to Canada

[azifali]

Agree with this completely

[talaba]

Hi there!

I'm sorry to see Iran undergo hardship. I love Iranian hospitality and literature. I plan to learn the language someday. I wish you all the best.

To answer your questions,

1. Yes, definitely. Especially in one of the countries you mentioned + Canada. I'd work for a non-profit or a university if I were you. Work/life balance is great.

2. Yes, you can have a life. Just don't do JavaScript. Go for a slow-paced field. Find a mature and boring tech and learn it. COBOL sounds good.

3. Probably. But your success depends on your emigration.

4. From the work/life balance point-of-view, COBOL sounds good. But finding a job is another question. If you think you can find a job, go for it. Otherwise learn a popular but mature language/ecosystem.

5. In your situation, I'd migrate first, get a degree in CS, and work part-time as a developer in the meanwhile. In the long run, this will be rewarding financially.

6. Go for it. You don't have kids. Things would have been difficult with kids.

[ehnto]

> I'd work for a non-profit or a university if I were you. Work/life balance is great.

I guess it depends, because I did not feel balanced at the University I worked at. Everyone was wildly stressed, taking on n+1 roles and responsibilities, and all of your work time was stolen by meetings and trying to get humans to manually do the bureaucracy between you and achieving your assigned tasks.

[soco]

It's probably more like a lottery. My experience working as a developer for a university was lower pay but relaxed environment. I also didn't notice any bureaucracy - I was developing software, not pushing projects.

[Arubis]

There’s plenty of good work out there with whatever language stack you already have. If you’re reasonably competent, by which I mean “can ship a code change to a familiar code base without being told what to do for every step”, you’re fine. Tech will be your best approach, especially if you’re planning to emigrate.

Sanctions are going to be a much bigger hurdle. I’ve known at least one Iranian citizen living stateside with a proper employer-employee W2 relationship, so I think you’ll be okay once you’ve got at least legal residency & work permit elsewhere, though a second passport may well be better. (I am definitely not a lawyer or sanctions professional.)

If you’re open to entrepreneurship, do you know anyone locally to you that runs their own business & collects payments from countries other than Iran? You could check with them for advice.

[cableshaft]

1. It's possible, but it's not easy to find those companies, as it's not really something you can really ask in an interview. You can possibly ask about work-life balance at least, and see what people say. Your best bet might be a large corporation with a steady but older product or technology.

2. Hard to say. I don't spend much time outside of work learning new tech, but I also try to find jobs where I get to practice them on the job, too (i.e. my current job is React, which I didn't know before taking this job, with various AWS/Azure tech I have to pick up bits and pieces of).

3. No, I wouldn't personally do that, especially on your salary. I've been able to get jobs without even sharing my github, which has almost nothing on it anyway, and nothing pertaining to the jobs I apply for (it's all game-related or some tiny scripts). I've also never had any interviewer ask me any questions based on my github when I have included the link. Also there have been times where I've been tossed a resume and been asked to interview someone in like, fifteen minutes, so I didn't have time to review a github properly. At best I'd check a portfolio website link if it was available, and read descriptions of the projects. I imagine many interviewers are given similar notice and don't have time to check your supporting links.

4/5. If you go the route of learning COBOL, you're going to be very limited in the types of jobs you can get and the industries you can work for (mainly government agencies and banks). I don't really know how lucrative it is, I've heard it can be, but every year more companies move away from it, so your options will keep decreasing. I personally wouldn't want to be in that position.

6. If you're only making 350 USD a month, I would definitely try to emigrate to another country. There's a lot more money you could be making if you were based out of another country (and still working remotely). I don't really know what to suggest there, as I've lived in the US my whole life and don't have those experiences, but there should be a path where you can increase your standard of living.

[fattybob]

Follow your wife on a spouse visa , she should be able to get a good job in Australia or UK, you might also want to consider Singapore and Malaysia too. I suggest you work hard an md focus on getting a qualification- degree in comp sci or something, accountancy may maybe, then you too can qualify for an employment visa as well as your wife. Having qualifications is everything when you are outside your home country - and you often end up only being a ale to get employment visas that are relevant in your qualifications - same for everyone that one i believe.

[markus_zhang]

How about Canada? I have a few Iranian colleagues and it seems to be relatively easier to get a PR than say US.

[throwawaymg]

That's true. But I believe Australia has more or less same policies as Canada. And since Australia has warmer weather, I'd rather go there.

[ramesh31]

>That's true. But I believe Australia has more or less same policies as Canada. And since Australia has warmer weather, I'd rather go there.

Australia is also a lot more expensive than Canada. And you will be almost totally excluded from western hemisphere employment due to the time zone, instead of being on EST with +/- 4hrs of the entire US and Europe.

[contingencies]

It is a hard time globally now and getting worse: anywhere will be a challenge, make it easier by going somewhere without high barriers of entry with receptive communities.

Why no resume? Just write down your experiences in sequence. Personal stuff can be included too, most employers of substance only care about skills at the end of the day.

I've met some young Iranians who made it out independently, even in non-tech fields (eg. architecture) in Southeast Asia. SEA is a good potential initial destination. Gets you out and networking and is not over the top (vs. western countries) for flights/visas. Bali, Malaysia and Thailand have a bit of tech presence. Don't recommend the other countries for various reasons but you could always try.

I heard Thailand recently flipped policy to offer 10K THB (USD$275)/year for a remote work long-stay visa, valid ~5-10 years IIRC. Unsure if it lets you get a bank account. (Compare ~AUD$8K=USD$5420 for a provisional immigration visa to Australia - if you qualify.) It's going to be chance to hit the right vein but there are 100% people in SEA who will appreciate your skills and willingness to commit for the opportunity.

Consider contact with the established Sikh community (generally trustworthy, international, reliable, moral types of good character by all accounts), or more generally crypto and tech meets (less so). Just reach out.

[eternalban]

Consider Armenia unless you are set on the 'West'. As you know, we Iranians and Armenians are naturally simpatico, and, my impression is that Yaravan has a very lively (remote) startup and developer scene. And Armenians are a lovely and warm people. There are most certainly lovely people over here too but emotional/social temperature is quite lower (but you'll get used to it). That is one of the harder things to adjust to when you come to West from Iran, as I did in '79. But then again, I have no idea what it's like in Iran these days, so who knows, maybe a non-issue.

So bad news is that there is a definitive age ceiling in IT (in the US at least). But deep specialization can remedy that discrimination to an extent. COBOL is not a 'hip' IT space so it may actually not be a bad idea. But regardless specialize so what you bring to the table trumps age discrimination. Or look for other work.

OSS work can (maybe, depending on various variables) help, but you need to look at it from an investment point of view. Reducing your income by 40% is a -major- investment of your resources. Why not instead dedicate your weekend to this and save 40%?

Work pressure varies, but in general larger, more staid and/or possibly boring, companies are more reasonable about work hours and associated pressures.

Advice? Get rid of the akhoonds and reclaim Iran.

[kkfx]

IMVHO for the sixth question you can target:

- Russia, friendly to Iran being ally, being a continental power have resources to survive almost any crisis, a thing EU (witch I'm from and I live) have not, so it might be easy to you target a large Russian city for a first immigration, spending FAR LESS than going in the west. From there you might decide something in few years, having learnt "emigration" and another social and work life, might seems nothing in the modern world, but count much;

- for EU France would probably be a better option because even if Germany-Iran ties are more developed Germany is en root to a DEEP disaster, France is also but far less and it's still the seventh world superpower + it still have a bit of social system;

- for north America perhaps Canada might be an option, it's IMO less bureaucratic than USA and less on the verge of a social collapse as well.

for 4) well... COBOL is still demanded and probably that means it will pay well for some years but it's really deprecated so if you know it already well, it might be a way to try a not super-popular path (and so with a big offer, not only a big demand) to maximize chances of finding interesting position instead of being just one in a million of others. Otherwise I'll honestly do not suggest it.

In any way the biggest issue IMO is how to get a job BEFORE emigration because the big deal is that you came from a cheaper country so the destination will be very expensive for some time, you need big savings on your side to jump the boat without too much risks.

[throw-ru-938]

Being Russian, I really wouldn't recommend moving to Russia.

Yes, if you're a foreigner you won't be conscripted, but the economy has been severely destabilized. We might actually be in for 1990's scale social upheaval, which you do NOT want to be a part of. Quality of life is probably going to tank because everything used to be imported, and now prices are rising. You'll still experience the banking sanctions and no access to freelancing. Nobody really speaks any foreign languages, not even English (St Petersburg being the only exception).

You could also want to consider the opportunity cost, because years spent in Russia are years you won't be able to invest into getting a citizenship somewhere respectable.

On the plus side, IT salaries are rising. I'm not sure see if this rise will actually be worth staying in Russia, if it will even keep pace with inflation, and if an Iranian dev would be able to get hired (because, of course, the working language everywhere is Russian).

[kkfx]

The EU is not in better shape: united with Russian Fed. in the EAEU we can be a stable partnership of the world top tech/industry power assembly (the EU) and the top natural resource repository with vast spaces, both needing each others, both without better alternative (since China, Turkey and India might be kind-of allied now but are definitively no friend of Russia), divided we will be both destroyed: Russian side fagocitated by China, EU side left straining by NATO policies.

In EU we are on the brink of a civil war, I suspect the USA and UK and Canada are in a similar situation, so not different than Russian Fed. BUT they have natural resources so while they surely suffer and going to suffer more they still get heat/cooling/food etc we probably not. POTENTIALLY Canada and USA can, they have big natural resources, BUT their private-centered development and very limited social State I doubt even their poor Citizens get anything but breadcrumbs...

All the world is in a similar situation and all the world heading to a far deeper crisis, we can't avoid that. Some will suffer more than others. IMVHO Iran will suffer much because it lack water for anything (food, hydro, even to drink) and energy alone does not suffice + the extreme heat will be more and more unlivable. EU will suffer much because if we do not rise against NATO VERY quickly with an unsound united front who put in jail for life the actual ruling class leaving zero chances of sabotage (veeeeery unlikely to a point of being utopia) we will simply be destroyed NATO need that to left Russia fable and "pivot to Asia" against China. Since the actual "Great Reset" is so hazardous that WWII seems to be just a small trip compared they probably lost their gambling or still end up in so dire condition to be in an equivalent situation for 99% of the people. China with it's enormous population will suffer much since they can't already source enough food, ... Russia probably will suffer in certain areas, but certain others (like for instance Tver Oblast, northern but not too northern Urals etc) will probably suffer less and anyway due to the size of the country something will always pops up...

At least, that's the choice/reasoning i would do if i were from Iran living there right now. Just think how complex would be emigrate to an unfriendly country: how can you obtain a visa from Iran? With an allied country is far easier.

[jacquesm]

(1) definitely yes

(2) definitely yes, but stay away from front end web stuff if you want to avoid it

(3) that depends on the visibility of the product and on whether or not you think it will help you land a job afterwards, a well respected maintainer of project 'X' or a high profile contributor would not find it all that hard to get a job with a company that is a large scale user of 'X'.

(4) that's an interesting thing, not the first one that I would try but I like your 'out of the box' thinking. Personally I'd go for something that is more in demand but that people dislike, such as either administrative software or embedded. The jobs are more interesting than they seem on the outside and typically job security is reasonably good because these are not boom-or-bust companies.

(5) you should definitely look for better jobs continuously for the first couple of years

(6) yes: concentrate on finding out which country is the most friendly with your country in terms of accepting immigrants and then work backwards from there. That's the biggest problem you will have to deal with the rest is essentially a side-show.

[throwawaymg]

Almost in tears reading all you supportive comments. Thank you everybody.

So my take is my biggest issue is to open a bank account that remote employers can pay me.

Another issue is to find a remote job/project that the employer is legally able to pay somebody located in Iran

Then having secured some money, Move to a cheap country so I'm able to take on more jobs.

Or just get a sponsored visa for Canada or Australia.

[lr4444lr]

Your wife's career is probably less portable than yours in an international move. Definitely make that part of the decision. I think your skillset and work habits would be ideal for in-house tech work at non-tech companies, where the more fundamental web technologies are directly used, and the tech, though perhaps important to keep running well, is not a major driver of the business value such that you will be put under intense pressure to deliver too fast.

[faramarz]

My advice, do remote jobs that pay in crypto until you've saved enough until you can travel out of the country. even if you make it to Turkey Today and are able to get online with a bank account, you're set up for global commerce.

Focus on front end web design if you have to and partner with a local graphic designer to land bigger contracts.

feel free to DM on twitter if you need specific advice. I'm just a hamvatan but not a developer.

[aristofun]

From personal emigration & developer experience — you’ll have to work your ass off anyway just to barely keep up with locals on so many levels, that you should not care about small details like work life balance.

You’ll have none for the first few years anyway, irrelevant of your new job.

The best thing you can do right know - build a strong resume and portfolio in your local market. To have a chance at competition in a developed country.

Good luck!

[TekMol]

This reminds me of yesterdays "I'm disabled and out of money. Now what?" post. Where an ex founder and developer had problems working half time and earning their living costs of $1500/month.

Multiple people asked why they don't do remote work via UpWork. And the poster answered none of them.

Here it confuses me even more.

Why would someone with coding skills work for 350USD/month?

Can't you work remotely for $XX/hour?

[jmuguy]

I imagine US sanctions on Iran make working for any company outside of Iran difficult if not impossible.

[H8crilA]

This, plus remember about the slowly boiled frog, which is exactly what such debilitating sanctions do to an entire population.

The (good?) news is that the OP seems close to a typical burnout snap, after which they might be able to take the necessary risks required to improve their situation. It's not a fun time while it is happening, though.

[faramarz]

Iran isn't connected to the world banking system, only way they can tap into the world economy is through crypto and many centralized services and wallets have blocked Iranian artist/dev wallets on known platforms.

Super smart engineers who would otherwise kill it in remote work.

[rokhayakebe]

They said they are in Iran. There are restrictions which prevent them from working with several countries. So they are left with what their local market dictates.

[ejanus]

But I know Iranians earning crypto for their remote work.

[AlwaysRock]

I wouldnt focus on cobol mostly because there are not a ton of cobol jobs. There are some. And they need people. But there are far more open javascript or c# or java roles.

I'd focus on full stack javascript/C# development since it seems like you know some of that already. Get some experience freelancing if you can and build your resume up for when you move.

[vbezhenar]

My 2 cents. Learn Java, SQL, Spring. Those technologies are in demand and they're not changing fast.

[ehnto]

PHP won't be going away for a long time either, and the gamut of jobs available is fairly wide. You'll never go hungry waiting for a gig if you're a freelancer, and if you're a talented developer there is an upper spectrum of complex projects that pay well.

Talented software developers are in high demand for PHP. It's used to build some very competent and complex applications and platforms, but not every PHP developer can work on those effectively, so clients are willing to pay well once they find someone who can work on those.

[keiferski]

I would look into WordPress. It’s still the most popular way to build websites.

- there is a huge ecosystem of themes and plugins that need development and maintenance

- it’s not “cool” so you have far less hype and trends

- the basic tech stack changes pretty slowly and you mostly don’t need to learn “hipster frameworks”

[Nextgrid]

I disagree.

The Wordpress field is saturated which means making a living wage is difficult. Even if you hit the lottery and release a popular paid plugin, it won't be sustainable in the long run.

Furthermore, Wordpress is unlikely to teach you modern development practices and even if you learn them by yourself you'll be hamstrung by the near-impossibility to apply them to that field.

PHP is fine (it's actually quite pleasant with modern frameworks), Wordpress is not.

[keiferski]

I didn’t mean to make your own plugin, but to work as a developer for an already-existing company. There are thousands of small WordPress firms that have 5-10 employees and they always seem to be hiring.

[Nextgrid]

> they always seem to be hiring

Which probably means either 1) they're not paying enough or 2) there aren't any qualified candidates around - and as for why that is, see 1).

[keiferski]

As I said, WordPress is a huge economy and there are many jobs because it’s not “cool”, the tech isn’t super exciting, and yes, the pay is definitely lower than top companies. But that also means the workload is usually lighter and it’s easier to get a job, which is what the OP was looking for.

[jmuguy]

If you've been working as a developer, how do you not have any resume/job history?

You can and should be able to work as a developer without the job being hell. There are dozens of us that actually enjoy our work :)

Don't learn COBOL.

[throwawaymg]

Never stayed in a company for more than 3 months. Couldn't handle the pressure. So I mostly did freelancing. Mostly invoicing software for small businesses

[sgt]

I think your primary issue isn't that you live in Iran. It's you.

[Nextgrid]

It can be both.

I won't blame him for not sticking around for more than 3 months if he's been exploited for low pay & unreasonable workloads (which they know they can do due to his situation).

[forvelin]

Try Canada or Australia. Also as a temporary solution you can open a bank account in Turkey or Azerbaijan and start doing some upwork.

[throwawaymg]

Can I do up working and get paid in crypto? Because bank accounts for Iranians is something that may get frozen any minute. Like actually any minute. Has happened to other people multiple times in past years

[Kalanos]

I agree w your "p.s." as a lot of compliance asks about where remote/contractors are located

[joshxyz]

life hack here is find recruiters from your origin (iran) and it becomes their problem to find your match not yours

[catchclose8919]

...learn about crypto and try to work remotely getting paid in it - unfortunately you'll likely have to work on cryptocurrencies and smart-contracts, but it beats COBOL ;) After you've saved enough, gtfo your country and get asylum anywhere it's not sanctioned (say you're a gay satanist foodie passioned about pork sushi etc.).

Not condoning tax evasion, but some countries deserve it.

[jacquesm]

Super bad advice for an immigrant, and questionable advice if you're not.

Please try to take this serious.

[catchclose8919]

He's a would-be / soon-to-be immigrant. After settling in the destination country he should ofc get his affairs 100% legal, and maybe change work fields (inside software it's easy). And if he wants good life in a bad country (some people are all for this, I don't get it, but whatever, has its perks, though it might be shorter), then working and earning as much as possible outside of society's legal fiancial system is seriously 100% the best advice! Sure, there's some extra skills he'll have to learn, get the bribing and personal security parts right with methods that work in your geographical region, and one must have some "exit plan" (eg. "buy a large farm when reaching 50") to not do this forever, but it's seriously the only advice.

People who've lived their whole adult life in "safe and civilized bouble" countries will ofc see in in reverse, but outside of the "safe zones" we currently live in, this planet is a nasty place and you're competing with nasty people, so properly taking context in consideration is the only way to take this serious and give people useful actionable life advice!

[kache_]

Yeah you can. Just build stuff that's useful, and eventually, you'll build negotiation power

[jajj627hajaa]

Just apply for jobs.booking.com you gonna have a decent job with a pretty decent life in Amsterdam/Netherlands. Plus Booking.com takes care of the whole immigration process including temporary stay. Life/work balance is just great

[jboogie77]

This post smells like BS to me. Not sure where this guy is working but I don’t know anyone making 350 a month as a dev with the supposed experience that you do,in Iran. 350 is what a college kid makes.

[lr4444lr]

Doesn't sound too far-fetched:

https://wagecentre.com/work/work-in-middle-east/salary-in-ir....

[throwawaymg]

Actually, It isn't BS. I'm working as a bookkeeper making 350USD. If I worked as a developer I would be making like 700-800 USD probably. That's the situation in Iran. A lot of people live a lot under that.

[vbezhenar]

You should find developer work in Iran first, get some experience.

[Kalanos]

Python

[roel_v]

I happen to know (quite well) an Iranian who was in a similar position to you before he came to Europe, except he had a lot of IT experience (and a finished degree) before attempting to move to Europe, but it's not working out for him. He's basically prohibited from working while he's trying to get a residence permit. That has been denied several times because he's basically (like you would be) an 'economic refugee'. He didn't speak the local language and he was too overwhelmed with how different everything was here to really learn. He got basically 0 callbacks on the dozens if not 100's of job applications he send out, despite wide-spread labor shortages in exactly the sorts of positions he applied for. Very little to none of his Iranian work experience counted for anything here (differences in certification systems, couldn't/can't get his university degree accredited). He's a few years older than you are (43 I think?) but you'll be too by the time you get out in the time frame you indicate, and this is an age that's already starting to work against you, especially if you're already burnt out.

You'll need 1000's to 10's of 1000's of EUR/USD to move anywhere in the West, otherwise you'll end up in refugee centers from where it'll be exceedingly hard to get/keep stable employment. It'll be very hard to find housing on a budget anywhere where there are economic opportunities in the fields you're looking in, so expect costs of several thousands a month (let's even say just 2k for everything for the two of you) - and you'll have to be able to pay those until you get a job.

As you will know, after you leave Iran it'll be pretty much impossible to get any cooperation from the Iranian government to get any of your paperwork validated/accredited etc (I've seen real problems stemming from that with several Iranians in the diaspora of the guy I was talking about above).

Your wife's job will be very hard to impossible to do here without basically going through university again. And you/she will not be eligible for scholarships. Nobody will really think of her experience in Iran as being applicable in Europe (regardless of how true or not that is), save for some niche circumstances like her being able to find a job working for an Iranian company or a company that works with Iranian companies a lot. I don't have to tell you that there are very few of those around.

Not to be a Debby Downer, but at least if you plan to come to Europe, make very sure you know what you're getting yourself into. Fair or not, you'll be lumped in with 100's of thousands of other Middle Eastern and African refugees, and it'll be very hard to get your foot in the door in professional jobs in Western Europe (and I imaging in Southern- or Eastern Europe it'll be more difficult still, as you'll have basically 0 chance without speaking the local languages very well).

[zackmorris]

Not sure if this makes you feel any better, but: people around the world are waking up to the understanding that countries like the US vilified countries like Iran to make vast fortunes in oil and other resources, while keeping wages artificially low through the threat of violence. I'm burned out from knowing that a large share of my income comes from exploitation of other countries.

In a very real sense, an increase in your income depends on us working to heal the racist/sexist/classist wounds of our own cultures to de-escalate the violence which props up income inequality.

But since that doesn't seem to be happening anytime soon.. the best bet is probably stoicism. What helped me was to drop expectation and focus on the current moment. So for example, when the boss is demanding, do you know why? Is it to save the business, or to increase profit for the owner? Those sorts of details inform us as to when we should go the extra mile or set a boundary and take care of our own body/mind/soul. I don't do much for money anymore, but I throw myself on my sword all the time for the greater good.

We can direct our attention towards virtuous paths by listening to our instincts. I've found that following my intuition towards service to others causes me to shift into realities that are more meaningful spiritually. Basically, the universe provides for us regardless of our economic circumstance, as long as we believe. But if we deny our inner child and soul contract, life crushes down on us harder and harder every day until we finally burn out (like I did in 2019).

So: yes there are a multitude of developer jobs, and working for a client directly is often far less stressful than working for an agency which seeks to maximize billable hours. The tradeoff being that money really does buy happiness, but idle time gets siphoned away so life goals sometimes slip out of reach. You mentioned moonlighting with remote work and the difficulties around bank accounts. But I suspect that the real difficulty is that if the boss finds out, you might lose your job. That's why you're kept so busy. Which creates cognitive dissonance, because a job that rules your life like that isn't worth having.. but it pays the bills. So I'd recommend ignoring the details like choice of programming language, and instead focus on just exactly what it is that you'd like to do with your life, and begin making small choices every day that will lead you there. You may lose your job and end up homeless, but half the people on this site are a month away from that anyway. Letting go of that fear and embracing love and gratitude for all things is where miracles begin IMHO. Just give the universe some time to manifest what you ask for. The bigger the ask, the longer it can take. I'm seeing changes in the world that I dreamed of over 20 years ago! I'm also receiving small blessings daily that I didn't even ask for or know I wanted. Basically the manual work I was doing through ego has largely been replaced with co-creation. Which is another way of saying that I rediscovered faith in something greater than myself, and that saved me from the wretched state I was in.

[randomopining]

How are they exploiting Iran? The gov there wants to upset stable power alignments and expand their reach to the Mediterranean, so they can have more power. They openly say they want to destroy Israel. How would that be the "good guy" in your worldview?

[zackmorris]

Sorry, I maybe should have been more specific.

The conflict we see today in the Middle East and also the Global South largely comes from colonialism and unpaid reparations. Specially, stuff like the Sykes-Picot agreement that assigned arbitrary borders to countries composed of overlapping cultural groups that previously had their own peace/trade agreements. I'm not super strong on history, but the rabbit hole goes down endlessly and countless books have been written about work by the CIA to destabilize various regions to maintain western (US) control during the Cold War, for example by overthrowing Iran's elected Prime Minister Mohammad Mossadegh in 1953, which flipped Iran from democracy to theocracy:

https://www.npr.org/2019/01/31/690363402/how-the-cia-overthr...

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/cia-assisted-cou...

My understanding is that what we see on the news today is double-talk and chest thumping where opposing sides talk past one another because the truth has been obfusecated under decades of falsehoods designed to perpetuate certain narratives. Similar plots have played out in Central America and Southeast Asia.

So basically a billion or more people have been caught in conflict that prevents the kind of long-term stability needed to build strong economies. Which keeps prices an order of magnitude lower than they should be so that developed nations can import cheap goods and services to maintain hegemony over the "developing" nations.

But with the internet transcending borders and the world transitioning to sustainability, it's not clear how resource wars will play out. Personally, I believe that the world was poised to make the transition to sustainability around 2000 (and maybe as early as 1980), but due to Peak Oil and the fall of the Soviet Union, the illuminati (I'm being a bit silly using that word) doubled down on unsustainability and funded divisive leaders around the world to encourage nationalism and maintain the status quo. So the last 20-40 years is kind of an alternate timeline based in ideology instead of say, egalitarianism.

Most people's incomes in developed nations are either propped up by or come entirely from this exploitation. My feeling is that peace with Iran could happen tomorrow, all we have to do is educate the rest of the world on a century of subterfuge. That's why education is often defunded and in the US we still can't look ourselves in the mirror when it comes to stuff like critical race theory. Without colonies to exploit, we've begun exploiting ourselves, and doubling down on ever more austerity policies designed to destroy the middle class to create more cheap workers for the capitalist class.

TL;DR: Middle East conflict is spun to divide us, but if the players talked openly and honestly about peace without interference from profiteers, we would all find that we have far more in common than we've been led to believe.

[randomopining]

Hmm I like some of your points but I think it could be too conspiracy driven. I don't see how stability would increase prices of oil? Wouldn't it actually decrease the prices, in that there would be more supply and more consistent supply? Less/No Disruptions would be priced in.

Really wouldn't the resource-rich countries just collude to increase the prices and extract extra value out of the other countries?

You're assuming that countries like Iran aren't playing a zero sum game to get as much of money and power as they can?

[zackmorris]

No, you're right and I agree with your points. The key point I was trying to make is that the US demonizes Iran precisely because it can't control it and skim its oil profits. Iran knows this, which is why it's always saber-rattling to protect its livelihood.

I feel that the US went wrong back in the late 1970s when Jimmy Carter was trying to transition off oil to solar and other renewable resources. I'd guess that he probably supports nuclear power too since that was his job in the Navy. That was all buried under a wave of propaganda when Ronald Reagan came in, and we're still living under that disinformation campaign today. Our dependence on fossil fuels and that conspiracy are what prevent Middle East peace today IMHO.

[sdfhdhjdw3]

> 2. If I get hired as a developer, can I have a life outside my work or I'm gonna have to learn the new hipster framework after work hours for the rest of my life?

I understand your frustration, but the phrasing doesn't hint at a great attitude here.

[tomc1985]

The dude is burnt out, give him a break.

Also, from my own observations, in Europe "hipster" doesn't have a negative connotation, meaning simply "cool person"

Part of the reason I left software is because everybody expects this obnoxious puppy-dog personality out of developers. The grumpy old bastards just want to be left alone to stew

[paskozdilar]

> Also, from my own observations, in Europe "hipster" doesn't have a negative connotation, meaning simply "cool person"

Not really "cool person", more like "pretentious person".

I always understood it as "someone who is putting extra effort into finding obscure/novel things just to appear cool".

[sdfhdhjdw3]

I would offer additional refinement.

A pretentious person is a person who thinks they're "better" than others (whatever that means) for irrelevant reasons, like their taste.

A poser is a person who in addition doesn't have the good tastes to be better than others, and so he fakes their tastes. He's putting in effort in order to attain pretentiousness.

I would define hipster as synonym of poser. It's worse than pretentious.

[Semaphor]

> Also, from my own observations, in Europe "hipster" doesn't have a negative connotation, meaning simply "cool person"

Uh, what? Maybe in some parts, in Germany hipster is absolutely negative.

[tomc1985]

> Uh, what? Maybe in some parts, in Germany hipster is absolutely negative.

Is this a new thing? I remember explicitly telling my Berliner friend that hipster had a negative connotation where I came from. Maybe all those things I heard about Berlin not being Germany are true :P

Where I lived in Holland the term was similarly neutral. (Also I saw an ad in Dutch "hipster" where it meant panties or women's underwear?)

This would be about 10 years ago though

[Semaphor]

> I remember explicitly telling my Berliner friend that hipster had a negative connotation where I came from.

> Berliner

The joke really writes itself :D

But I’ll also allow that this might be one of the occasions where I’m too out of touch with German culture, it’s not as if I talk about hipsters with my German friends ;)

> Also I saw an ad in Dutch "hipster" where it meant panties or women's underwear?

> Low-rise is a style of clothing designed to sit low on, or below, the hips. The style can also be called lowcut, hipster, or hip-hugger.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-rise_(fashion)

[tomc1985]

> it’s not as if I talk about hipsters with my German friends ;)

Yeah, it didn't really come up with German friends from other parts of the country. Though the Berliner epitomized "hipster" in the California definition of the word. I miss that guy...

[black_puppydog]

I think neither does your answer. 90% of currently under-development frameworks will remain niche. Plus, the "after hours" part is really what does it for me. If I need it on the job, that's where I'll learn it.

[sdfhdhjdw3]

My answer doesn't hint at a good attitude? Whose attitude? Mine? My attitude about what? What does my answer tell you about my attitude about what?

[pell]

Your attitude about people’s serious questions about life work balance.

[sdfhdhjdw3]

"can I have a life outside my work" isn't a serious question, it's just venting.

If it was a serious question, he could've solved it by googling, and the answer is yes, of course there's situations where you could have life outside of work. Half of the developers I know work 9 to 5, and I can google and see how others are doing. Instead, he's just venting. Which is understandable in his situation, but doesn't make it a serious question.

[52-6F-62]

It's not a bad attitude. When front end frameworks are actively disabling browser APIs you've come to learn over years of experience in favour of their own tangled functions (that break if you look at them wrong) it gets pretty annoying.

I'd call that wisdom...

[tinktank]

I understand your phrasing, but your reply doesn't hint at any empathy here.

[throwawaymg]

I apologize for any bad meanings of my words. Completely unwanted.

[digianarchist]

No need to apologize. It's a completely reasonable request.

[kuramitropolis]

"Hipster frameworks" is a strawman. You see how it made people argue? That's so that they can dance around the actual issue some more. You're trying to get out of a failing society and they discuss Berlin and the meaning of "hipster". Here's what they don't want to know:

* There are new people going into software development all the time (because like some other poster said it's one hell of a cushy job). As a result, there are a lot of developers who spend a lot of time learning frameworks because they don't really know the language or the operating principles of the underlying platform/environment. This only makes them replaceable and easy to exploit. Differentiate and build yourself a moat by cultivating a deeper understanding of those subject matters that you personally find most inspiring.

* Churn is especially bad in frontend, but if you are already good at VanillaJS you'll do fine and be productive in any framework. You may even find it fun to learn how different tools solve the same problems differently. This requires you to be familiar with the essence of those problems, and not only the usage of the solutions. I suggest becoming familiar more deeply with the more time-tested tools, as they have the greatest mindshare and the most prolific ecosystems - so, more stuff out there for your to reuse and learn from. "Choose boring techology": https://boringtechnology.club/

* On a related note, if you do find yourself working in the Web ecosystem, I suggest brushing up on the history of JavaScript, especially how the transition from ES5 to ES6 and beyond was implemented. This is the ultimate source of most of the complexity that people have in mind when complaining about framework churn. The proliferation of React and TypeScript, and the related, somewhat forced migration from CommonJS to ESModules over the past 2-3 years, are a continuation of that.

* The "new shiny hipster framework" is a blip on the radar. The chances of being exposed to one in production are low by definition, and you should cherish them. If it's some particularly bad one you might spearhead an effort to replace it with something more sensible throughout, and get experience that will lead to better career progression. What's more likely is being exposed to (a) a specialized in-house framework which cannot be readily transferred across gigs, (b) a mainstream framework which gradually reveals its ugliness as you become familiar with it.

* Working with/on in-house framework could be a great opportunity for learning and applying higher-level concepts across the spectrum from development to business. Mainstream frameworks can be a bit depressing because a lot of them are open source in name only - they are a way for tech giants to get people to solve their problems for free, i.e. once you see what they're doing wrong you can't unsee it, it's all over the place, and you can't really do much of anything about it. Find the one you hate the least and learn how make it do something that its authors totally didn't anticipate - that way you'll know enough to fix it when it inevitably falls apart.

* Work-life balance is not a constant. The learning curve in this line of work is steep but the amount of fundamental knowledge that you need before you can be reasonably productive in any generic developer role is finite. (They say mastery takes 10000 hours. They also say that number is bollocks.) In the end, you gotta put food on the table, and you gotta stay healthy and not burn yourself out in order to... keep putting food on the table. Think laterally, don't get stuck in that loop, and think how to spend time on activities that you, personally, find meaningful.

[kingkawn]

I understand your critique, but the phrasing doesn’t hint at a great attitude here.

[Chris2048]

s/w is full of new hipster frameworks, nothing wrong with a realist attitude.

[kache_]

you try making shit tier third world pay for 15 years using frameworks from so called hipsters, knowing they make 50x your income

lel

[sdfhdhjdw3]

But that's exactly my point. It's a horrible situation to be in, but it reinforces that question isn't really about frameworks, it's about a person who is frustrated. Therefore, asking "will I have to... for the rest of my life" won't lead to any productive answers, I think.