[SaarRyan]

how they can know? besides forbidding dating apps i don't think police officers will sit in the bars to make sure no one is going home with someone they just met. though the rules there are quite strict due to the fact this is islamic state

[sshine]

> how they can know?

This reminds me of the American boy who stole a poster in North Korea, after which he was imprisoned and presumably tortured for 15 months, and died a week after returning home, after having been in a coma for a year: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40335169

I could fear a few football fans are going to end up in the Qatari prison system because they don't understand that the consequences of their actions are different than in their home country. After all, how can they know?

[baisq]

A 22 year old is a boy now?

[sshine]

Yes.

Simone De Beauvoir said "One is not born a woman, but becomes one".

The idea is that "man" and "woman" are social roles you gradually grow into as you increase your responsibility for yourself and others. Things that may contribute towards becoming a man or woman are: Becoming a parent, becoming financially independent, becoming emotionally mature, participating in society on the level of your fellow grown-up peers, becoming fully grown.

We will also use the term "young man".

https://www.regain.us/advice/general/at-what-age-does-a-man-...

> Some mental health professionals do not uphold the notion of age-based maturity. They assert that maturity has more to do with your background, values, and even biology than years alone. How you mature and the things you consider mature will vary based on your raise, neurological development, and cultural framework. Some cultures value autonomy more than emotional depth, and maturity will be marked by the ability to take care of oneself. Other cultures value emotional depth, and dependence is not seen as a pitfall but a lack of emotional intelligence.

[dotancohen]

My seven year old changes the oil (I loosen the oil filter and remove the drain plug after he's told me to), works with (real) hammer and nails, and traverses overgrown hills without slowing down his infantry-serving father's pace. Is he a man at seven?

Or for that matter, my neighbor's six year old herds the sheep all day in the sun, unattended. He is responsible to bring his own food and water, and tend to the sheeps' needs such as food and water, and actively herding them. Is that six year old a man?

How is a 22 year old person who crosses an ocean and gains admittance to one of the most secluded nations on earth, by way of other nations, considered a boy?

[sshine]

> Is [my son] a man at seven? Is [my neighbor's son] a man at six?

No, a seven year old is not even close to being neurologically or physically mature. If your son happens to be a dog, even though he this is 6 x 7 = 42 human years, "man" usually refers to the human species only, but in this case I'd be willing to call him a dog-man.

There is a legal definition of "adult" which is somewhere between 16 and 21 depending on the age of majority in the country you live in. [1] I am not disputing that a 22 year old American is, by default, a legal adult, and I don't think you believe that this is what we're arguing about.

> How is a 22 year old person who crosses an ocean [...] considered a boy?

By not having finished their development physically, neurologically, emotionally, and socially.

https://bestlifeonline.com/age-adult/

"What we're really saying is that to have a definition of when you move from childhood to adulthood looks increasingly absurd," Peter Jones, Professor of Psychiatry and Deputy Head of the School of Clinical Medicine at the University of Cambridge, told the BBC. "It's a much more nuanced transition that takes place over three decades."

Jones admits that the age at which someone becomes an "adult" is different for everyone, but indicates that it would be inaccurate to call someone in their twenties an adult because they're still going through a lot of brain development. "There isn't a childhood and then an adulthood. People are on a pathway, they're on a trajectory," he said.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_majority

[baisq]

Young man sounds okay to me. But boy? For a 22 year old? That's downright manipulative.

[Agamus]

Based on everything I have seen over my lifetime (~50 years), the answer is yes.

At this point, it should be clear to all that we need to raise the age to purchase alcohol, tobacco, firearms, and to vote. I'm saying this as someone with who tends to lean strongly in favor of individual rights.

Either that, or acknowledge that these laws have very little to do with public health and safety, and more to do with profit and taxation.

[l33t2328]

I think so.

[elpescado]

Such laws have some far-fetched, surprising (at least for Westerners) and very creepy consequences.

I've read a story about a Swedish girl that had been date-raped while staying on one of Gulf states. Having been used to European legal standards, she reported this incident to the police, only to find out that not only her case was dismissed, but she was found guilty of extramarital affair.

Creepy as hell.

[Gnob]

Excuse me but this is laughable, the logic not the case, I am sorry for the girl who've been through this but corruption exists everywhere and you're coming for far-fetched conclusions based on hearsay.

Pro lgbtq+ laws have far worse consequences.

A trans sexually assaulted an American man's daughter in the school bath then they triggered the dad in the court and when he couldn't take it anymore they accused him of DV, it was pretty traumatizing to even watch the video of the man raging for what happened to his daughter only to be accused of DV.

another man got 16 years for merely taking down a flag and burning it, arson I know but also 16 years, I think nowadays you'd get around that for murder.

I am sure I can bring you more examples of Sweden pulling children from their families if they suspect they're teaching them anything related to Islam as in to oppose going out on school trips or as in refusing to wear half naked clothes when going to school etc, heard a lot of them and kids where crying to get back to their family, I am sure an actually oppressed kid won't look so comfy and happy with his abusers or even get red face crying just wanting to get back to their families, the difference is, the media doesn't care about these because they're not seculars, me not hearing about these from a dude on the youtube I would have had no clue.

Nothing creepy tho, as far as it's all under the umbrella of secular western standards.

[lostdog]

The "trans" student is a kindergartner who doesn't identify as trans, and the assault likely didn't happen: https://decaturish.com/2018/10/u-s-department-of-education-i...

The flag burning is a problem with over-imprisoning, that is widely regarded as a big problem with America, and I'm not sure why pro-lgbtq+ laws are an issue here.

I didn't bother to try to research your rant about Sweden.

EDIT: If you're talking about this other event, the student doesn't appear to be trans either, but went into the girls' bathroom despite identifying as male: https://loudounnow.com/2021/10/26/teen-convicted-in-sexual-a...

[Gnob]

okay I think I was wrong on the trans issue, he seems to be actually a male and he either brute forced his way to the bathroom or identified as gender fluid but anyways I will cut it and say I was wrong.

they're at the very least trying to force a minority ideology over the general majority.

And that is quite the opposite of democracy and freedom. pushing the ideas of a minority as taken for granted is how authoritarian systems work.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/17/lgbtq-american...

this is in the states, I am sure the case is similar everywhere else.

https://www.statista.com/chart/6466/europes-lgbt-population-...

the issue is also pushing the "European standards", Muslims are not opposed to gays if they get treated, quite the opposite the Islamic opinion is that God will reward them because they're struggling and they should be treated and taken care of.

speaking of the European standards, I don't buy it anymore, used to, but not anymore.

Their lies clearly show up when the European values make the LGBTQ+ / feminist struggles heroic after years of secular oppression of the Muslims only to blame all the failures and mistakes of the secular ruling systems on the Muslims and Islam.

Anyone called the SA prince a terrorist when he chopped off Khashoukji to pieces and put his body parts in trash bags? No, not really.

Have any humanitarian organization shed any lights on the Muslims being thrown in jails and tortured and murdered and the women probably raped? Nope, they'd probably support the local narrative by claiming these to be fanatics or terrorists etc.

all I am attempting to do is to show you that corruption doesn't only exist in Qatar, it does exist outside too despite that you're trying to be overdramatic about it.

Also it's their country, if you refuse to comply with the local laws you can refrain from travelling.

same as if a Muslim refuses to comply with the laws of a western country he or she can go back to their country or to a more culturally appropriate place for them.

What's mindboggling is the amount of criticism of such a little thing.

ps. you won't need to stay more than a week probably, and unless you have issues I doubt it would be hard to refrain from banging someone for a week till you get back.

Weird how so many people feel entitled to change the laws and ideologies of others but would call out any such attempts being done onto them as brainwashing or fanaticism etc.

[elpescado]

I think that's called "whataboutism".

[Gnob]

Yes it probably is, but I don't think it's bad in this context because I am not trying to gaslight anyone I am trying to give a sight on the other side.

You mentioned one story, and I will take it for granted, yes laws can be abused, don't date in Qatar, you can go out, have fun, go on trips etc. But don't expect them to change their laws for you, unless I can expect your country to change their laws to allow me to practice my religion to the fullest.

By the way, a rapist can face execution if he did it under the threat of a gun / knife, if not he's supposed to get 80 / 100 lashes iirc. But also getting out half-naked, dating, staying in a room alone with a female isn't allowed either. That is under Sharia rule ( which doesn't exist nowadays ), not sure about the laws in Qatar.

Once I see the west supporting and cheering a man with 4 obeying, covered up wives and calling anyone who disagrees Islamophobic and any player who decides not to support that idea will be considered to be sanctioned like what happened to Idrissa Gueye when he refused to show support for LGBTQ+, I will support the LGBTQ+ rights (neither will ever happen).

And no, you can't force women into marriage and they can ask for divorce.

[akudha]

lol. You’re assuming they’ll enforce the law truthfully (however stupid the law itself is). If they arrest some foreigners at random, claiming they broke some law, what are you going to do? Maybe they’ll think twice about messing with Americans or some other powerful country’s citizens, but what about other less powerful countries?

Even if you do get the case thrown out, do you really wanna go through the Qatari legal system? Get harassed by sexually repressed cops, especially if you are a woman?

The most sensible thing to do is stay home and watch the games on TV. It is not worth going to fucked up places just to watch soccer, imho.

[progbits]

Or better yet, don't even watch it and give them advertising revenue.

There is plenty of entertainment around that doesn't support a medieval dictator.

[nickfromseattle]

When I was in college, our dorms had a 'night desk' immediately after you entered the dorm to keep out criminals. Two people would sit there all night, and you had to manually 'check in' with them to be allowed to return to your room.

In actuality, it was a small rural college town with minimal criminal activity, and the night desk was used to catch, arrest, and fine college students returning to their dorm to sleep after a night of drinking.

Qatar will likely enlist hotels to police this law.

[danamit]

They will respond to complaints.

Say you go to your Airbnb, walk the stairs with a woman that could look like a sex worker, the neighbors will consider that disrespectful to be done "in front of their kids", and they will call the police on you. However not sure if that's enough to warrant the police entering your house, so they might just talk to you and ask you to be considerate or give you a warning.

[crote]

Don't worry, drinking and partying is outlawed too. And they will absolutely check. Can't provide proof of marriage? Straight to jail it is!

[runnerup]

Doha has areas set aside for drinking, bars, etc.

They don’t enforce rules about sex between tourists / western expats unless someone involved brings it directly to law enforcements attention and asks for their intervention.

Don’t let anyone know you’re gay or the victim of sexual assault. But consenting sex between two middle class non-Muslims behind closed doors is a complete non issue.

[vasco]

> But consenting sex between two middle class non-Muslims behind closed doors is a complete non issue.

> unless someone involved brings it directly to law enforcements attention and asks for their intervention.

Sure sounds like it.

This looks like a sort of dystopian version of the quote: "If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him".

Meaning everything is non issue until you have problems with someone, at which point they can just put you in jail because you've been willingly breaking the law even though it was a "non issue". Why anyone would choose to live under these conditions is beyond me.

[elpescado]

This. States that push such legislation are also likely to be corrupt. It's fine until you run into problems with someone that happens to be in power.

[Agamus]

The fact that there is any confusion about this, (and clearly there is!), makes this an issue.

For my part, I would never travel to a middle eastern country for any reason, specifically to avoid the possibility that something I never suspected could be an issue, becomes an issue.

[brutusborn]

What about upper class non-muslims? :P

[manojlds]

Read the article? It's about extra marital sex. So it includes people who have known each other for a long time but are just not married.

[serf]

>how they can know?

Who cares,

a) it's not really worth the risk of participating, let alone participating and then knowingly breaking rules,

and b) no single person can ever have a good enough knowledge of the security systems of a state-level actor that they can confidently say that they aren't at risk.

if it were me i'd be hesitant to take the risk of personally traveling there, let alone breaking their rules.

[jleyank]

I would not take that bet. And you might find out that your embassy can’t help you if you break a known law.

[_trampeltier]

Ready to risk 7 years jail?