[PKop]

They are dependent on and subservient to the US and its geopolitical interests. We see this right now with Germany self-sabotaging it's own economy and industrial power by cutting off cheap Russian energy at the direction of US policy interests (Nord Stream 2 was agreed upon for years between Russia and Germany but thwarted at every turn, sanctioned etc by US).

[rat87]

It wasn't thwarted at every turn. Maybe we should have but we didn't, at least not at every turn.

We did warn then it was a bad idea. Other countries especially countries in Eastern EU warned them it was a bad idea. And lo and behold trying to bring peace through trade didn't work with Russia.

Unless Germany wants to exit the EU like the UK it does have to take the interests of other EU countries into account, many of them are much more anti Russia then America for obvious reasons. And even if Germany were to leave, not sanctioning Russia now would still be bad even if only considering German interests

[PKop]

US sanctioned Swiss and Russian suppliers constructing the pipeline, and debated in Congress and Whitehouse various policies to ban it's activation.

>it was a bad idea

It isn't a bad idea. It's a very good idea for Europe. Cheap plentiful energy supply from your neighbor and expanded economic relations would be a very good thing for making Europe economy strong.

Sanctioning Russia is hurting Europe severely. They have massive gas and oil needs supplied by Europe. The sanctions hurt German industry and this energy cannot be replaced by other sources anywhere near similar prices or volumes

[lrem]

It was a very bad idea. "We don't need nuclear power, we have Russian gas" is pretty hard to defend as an idea, really. Especially after Russia went pretty overt in its ambitions to re-establish the empire. And the invasion of Georgia was years before construction of Nord Stream 1 started and Nord Stream 2 went into planning. The annexation of Crimea years before the construction of Nord Stream 2 started.

[alaricus]

Fun fact: the rabidly anti-Nuclear part of German politics is the Green party. Who are also the most pro-American and pro-War faction these days. It makes 0 sense.

[Paradigma11]

I do think that the only pro war faction is not found in german politics but in russia. How are the greens in favour of russians war of aggression in ukraine?

[WoahNoun]

It was also hated by other EU countries:

>President of the European Council Donald Tusk said that Nord Stream 2 is not in the EU's interests.[19] Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi and Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán have questioned the different treatment of Nord Stream 2 and South Stream projects.[19][20] Some claim that the project violates the long-term declared strategy of the EU to diversify its gas supplies.[21] A letter, signed by the leaders of nine EU countries, was sent to the EC in March 2016, warning that the Nord Stream 2 project contradicts the European energy policy requirements that suppliers to the EU should not control the energy transmission assets, and that access to the energy infrastructure must be secured for non-consortium companies.[22][23]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream_2

[PKop]

Diversify the gas and oil supplies after you lock in a consistent steady supply, not before lol. Now European industrial capacity will crater. They need energy to fuel their economy. No nation ever became strong or a world power by consuming less energy, or paying more than their peers.

And, just because they want to diversify, doesn't mean the present geological and economic reality allows for it. Utopian policy in place of realpolitik is foolish. Same with ESG and insane green anti hydrocarbon, anti-nuclear policies.

[alaricus]

Nord Stream 2 was opposed by Americans who want to sell overpriced LNG to Europe.

It was also opposed by Eastern Europeaners such as Tusk who (understandibly) dislike Russia.

[fomine3]

Now it's proved that Eastern are right.

[alaricus]

Hardly

[TulliusCicero]

Ah yes, the US interest of not funding Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

Heaven forbid any Europeans have any interest themselves in not helping a warmonger. Obviously they can only do this at the behesr of Uncle Sam.

[PKop]

It is only my claim that their interests are not completely aligned. US is much more energy independent and gepolitically secure across the ocean from whatever happens on the "world-island" [0].

Whereas Europe might directly suffer from instability and chaos, as well as loss of Russian energy supplies, the US would not and in relative terms becomes stronger if Europe is severed from Russian energy, and the continent is in conflict and chaos.

Europe having tight relations with Russia, economically especially energy-wise, is greatly beneficial to Europe and detrimental to US hegemony.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Geographical_Pivot_of_Hist...

[TulliusCicero]

> Europe having tight relations with Russia, economically especially energy-wise, is greatly beneficial to Europe

You're once again excluding any calculations of Russia using the money to run around overthrowing democracies. "It's greatly beneficial if you ignore all the mass murder."

The whole reason why they're now cancelling NS2 is because of this. Germany likes cheap energy, sure, but they're less than enthused about the money paying for that cheap energy going into executing and raping civilians in Ukraine.

[alaricus]

The world doesn't revolve around "America vs Russia". There are lots of other things going on.

And if you are looking for a mass murderer, is there a bigger mass murderer than USA after 20 years of mass murder in the Middle East?

[systemvoltage]

That would be the Middle East itself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State

To fight ISIS, it is mostly a joint effort of US + NATO + Allies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Joint_Task_Force_%E2%....

> The United States accounts for the vast majority of airstrikes (75–80%), with the remainder conducted by Australia, Canada, Denmark, France, Jordan, Belgium, the Netherlands, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, the United Arab Emirates, and the United Kingdom.

[alaricus]

This made me laugh.

Isis was a direct consequence of American invasion of Iraq. You can't do what America did in Fallujah and not expect some kind of blowback.

[rat87]

Yes it doesn't revolve around America vs Russia

You have to consider the EU vs Russia.

It's not in EU's or Germany's intrest to keep trading with Russia

[Shadonototra]

It is in EU's interest to keep trading with Russia

It is not in US's interest to let EU keep trading with Russia

USA wants the EU to be their giant marketplace where they can sell their culture and products

USA also wants to weaken Russia so they can finally contain China North, East, West and South

Seems like you were sleeping the past century, blurry days ahead!

[PKop]

It is though, they get something like 40% of their gas from Russia, and 30% of oil imports.

It is immensely in the interest of Germany to have good relations and continued trade with Russia.

[alaricus]

EU and Russia are practially neighbours. Our interest is in peace and trade, not war.