[chimeracoder]

> The swastika is a completely different symbol and unrelated to the Hakenkreuz. The swastika has never been used or considered by the Nazis.

This is not true. "Hakenkreuz" is literally just a German word for swastika, etymologically a descriptive one in German instead of a Sanskrit loan word.

Contrary to popular misconception, there is no inherent difference between a swastika as used in religious imagery and a swastika as used by the Nazis. The difference is context.

[E4YomzYIN5YEBKe]

Hakenkreuz is not the German word for swastika anymore than swastika is the Sanskrit word for Hakenkreuz.

[chimeracoder]

> Hakenkreuz is not the German word for swastika anymore than swastika is the Sanskrit word for Hakenkreuz.

In the sense that a dictionary translates one to the other and vice versa, sure, you're correct.

[mise_en_place]

> Contrary to popular misconception, there is no inherent difference between a swastika as used in religious imagery and a swastika as used by the Nazis.

This is just plain wrong, I'm not sure what the counterfactual is here. The Nazi symbol is rotated by 45 degrees, the other one isn't. Context doesn't matter one bit, they're two distinct sigils. You could make the argument that the swastika heavily influenced the creation of Hakenkreuz, but they are two distinct symbols.

[chimeracoder]

> This is just plain wrong, I'm not sure what the counterfactual is here. The Nazi symbol is rotated by 45 degrees, the other one isn't.

No, you are incorrect. The Nazi one is often "rotated", but it is not always. It's quite easy to find photos where it is not, such as this from Nuremberg in 1937. https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/nuremberg-rall...

The religious swastika does not have inherent directionality; its orientation depends on the context in which it is used.

[schroeding]

You're right, and it's easily provable by looking at old literature. The word "Hakenkreuz" is ancient and was used in the 19th century[1], decades before the national-socialism.

I have a hard time understanding why so many people want them to be two different symbols. The symbol is not the problem, but the meaning it conveys, right? The context matters, see the difference between Germany and Finland - both used the Hakenkreuz, but they are not the same, as the context is different, isn't it?

Context is everything. The German Army still uses a version of the Iron Cross, but the context is different - using the same symbol on a flag from the German Empire has a vastly different meaning.

[1] For example: https://books.google.de/books?id=VbkNkkgHvYgC&pg=PA1&printse...

[Mo3]

> The symbol is not the problem, but the meaning it conveys, right?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you take a symbol, rip out its symbolic meaning, replace the symbolic meaning with a completely new symbolic meaning, in my opinion you end up with a new symbol that may share some visual aspects, but has nothing to do with the other symbol in terms of what a symbol actually is - conveying symbolic meaning. It's still going to be a new symbol with different context, and calling a Hakenkreuz (as used by the Nazi regime) a Swastika is more likely incorrect than correct.

Appropriation and following complete perversion of the original symbolic meaning does not make the resulting output interchangeable with the original symbol.

[schroeding]

I searched for the original text in Mein Kampf in German, he wrote:

"Ich selbst hatte unterdes nach unzähligen Versuchen eine endgültige Form niedergelegt; eine Fahne aus rotem Grundtuch mit einer weißen Scheibe und in deren Mitte ein schwarzes Hakenkreuz"

As established[1], the word Hakenkreuz was already used at that point to describe the swastika, including in the original religious meaning. So he wrote "a black swastika". Translating it as "hooked cross" is IMO like translating "kindergarten" to "child garden", technically correct, but weird.

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but assigning new symbolic meaning to a symbol results in a new, unrelated symbol.

Does it? The German Bundeswehr still uses the Iron Cross. It's the same symbol, it has the same name, the same origin. But doesn't the meaning differ, whether you see it on a German tank now or on a tank of the Imperial Army in WW1 or the neck of a german officer in WW2?

I'm not sure whether or not there is a definition of symbol. If you define a symbol as a character or icon paired with a certain meaning, then you're right. But that would imply that e.g. the weird S[2] everyone draw at school was a different symbol every time. Would you agree with that?

[1] see my link to the old book, or just search on Google Books for "Hakenkreuz" in the 19th century [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cool_S

[Mo3]

> But that would imply that e.g. the weird S[2] everyone draw at school was a different symbol every time.

I'm not sure, this symbol is not known in Germany or at least has not been when I went to school there, but if the general context, meaning or reference of all of these S symbols is the same, and no matter the exact visual representation the intent behind it was the same, then yes. It's probably the same symbol, but again I'm not an expert on symbols.

> Does it? The German Bundeswehr still uses the Iron Cross. It's the same symbol, it has the same name, the same origin. But doesn't the meaning differ, whether you see it on a German tank now or on a tank of the Imperial Army in WW1 or the neck of a german officer in WW2?

Yes, the intent behind displaying the symbol is different. I believe it could be regarded as a new iteration of this symbol.

[schroeding]

Ok, fair enough, then we just have different definitons of symbols, and there apparently is no hard definition. :D

> I'm not sure, this symbol is not known in Germany or at least has not been when I went to school there

Interesting, it was when I went to school! Maybe it's not as universal as the internet thinks it is. But the meaning surely was different, in my class it was used by the class clown as a personal symbol of approval :D

[gommm]

I don't remember seeing it at school in Germany in the 90s either. Curious if it's something that came later.

[chimeracoder]

> I have a hard time understanding why so many people want them to be two different symbols.

Neo-Nazis have spent years spreading misinformation about this, because (ironically) conflating the two allows them to use Nazi imagery more openly and with a greater degree of plausible deniability[0]. Unfortunately, that means that the vast majority of people who don't know any better[1] end up falling for the propaganda, because it sounds believable.

[0] You'll see a low-effort verison of this on places like Twitter or other Internet forums, where people will write U+5350 in their display name or signature, and when called out on it, will immediately claim that "it's religious and you can tell by the direction it's pointing" (which is wrong). Of course, actual Neo-Nazis will openly use that exact character (U+5350) as a Nazi symbol with no concern for the direction or orientation - because, again, it's not about distinguishing the two; it's about creating plausible deniability through confusion.

[1] eg, people who are not Hindu (and therefore would be familiar with its religous use) or Neo-Nazis (and therefore would be familiar with its Nazi use)

[Mo3]

Hakenkreuz is not “literally the name for a swastika”. Hakenkreuz literally translates to hooked cross. It has nothing to do with a Swastika which is a completely unrelated symbol that has been around for a long time. The swastika is also visually different (the Hakenkreuz is angled 45°, we could argue about the form itself, but on the other hand its not a very deliberate geometric structure)

Furthermore, “Swastika” has not once been mentioned or used by the Nazis. Hitler in Mein Kampf referred to it as a hooked cross, and while they probably knew about the Swastika itself, assigning a completely new symbolic meaning to a symbol results in a new, unrelated symbol.

In fact, as far as my current knowledge goes, the in the English speaking world wide-spread mistranslation of "Hakenkreuz" to "swastika" was a deliberate mistranslation by a British Christian priest that has propagated into mainstream “knowledge”.

[chimeracoder]

> Hakenkreuz is not “literally the name for a swastika”. Hakenkreuz literally translates to hooked cross. It has nothing to do with a Swastika and the Swastika was not the blueprint or inspiration for the Hakenkreuz.

This is mind-boggling revisionism. The swastika was a well-known symbol even in Europe by the beginning of the 20th century, recognized as an Eastern ("Oriental") symbol, and Europeans even had a general, albeit bastardized, understanding of its meaning. In fact, you can still see examples of pre-Nazi swastika use in parts of Europe today, in older buildings and designs, although those have been getting replaced over the years. Most recently, Finland's air force dropped the swastika from their imagery. They had adopted the symbol in 1918, by which point the swastika was a popular symbol in Europe[0].

It's wild to claim that the Nazis were somehow completely unaware of the symbol they were using, especially because the Nazis themselves were so open about their (revisionist and ahistorical) beliefs regarding the "Aryan master race".

You're trying to draw a distinction between the word "Hakenkreuz" and "swastika", and that distinction simply does not exist. "Swastika" is the original, Sanksrit name for a symbol that was (and is) used in religious imagery, and which was later appropriated for political purposes by far-right authoritarians in Germany. Those Germans used a German descriptor for that symbol, but there is no question about where they got that symbol from, because they made zero efforts to hide it.

[0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53249645

[Mo3]

I am not quite sure what you’re trying to argue about. The Swastika has been around for a long time, the Hakenkreuz may or may not be inspired by it, however the Nazis not once used the term Swastika, or referred to it. The common mistranslation of Hakenkreuz to Swastika in the English speaking world is a deliberate mistranslation propagated by a British Christian priest.

[chimeracoder]

> The Swastika has been around for a long time, the Hakenkreuz may or may not be inspired by it

Adolf Hitler literally explains his use of the symbol, and its origins, in Mein Kampf. There is no "may or may not", unless you are somehow trying to argue that Adolf Hitler is not an authoritative primary source on Nazism.

> the Nazis not once used the term Swastika

I don't know if this is true (and I'm disinclined to take this claim at face value), but even if it is, it's besides the point. The fact that the Nazis openly took a symbol from another source, admitted that they did so because of the connection to that other source, and then appropriated it for a different purpose is what's relevant, not the fact that they chose a German descriptor when talking about that symbol instead of using a loanword.

[Mo3]

You mean this part in Mein Kampf?

> "I myself, meanwhile, after innumerable attempts, had laid down a final form; a flag with a red background, a white disk, and a black hooked cross in the middle. After long trials I also found a definite proportion between the size of the flag and the size of the white disk, as well as the shape and thickness of the hooked cross."

> "As National Socialists, we see our program in our flag. In red, we see the social idea of the movement; in white, the nationalistic idea; in the hooked cross, the mission of the struggle for the victory of the Aryan man, and, by the same token, the victory of the idea of creative work."

Nowhere, in the whole book, is the Swastika and its symbolic meaning mentioned as a direct inspiration for the Hakenkreuz. Instead, the Nazis attributed their own ideology to the symbol, but not even to the Swastika itself, but to it's form, and furthermore that doesn't change anything about the Swastika itself.

Wikipedia states;

> The swastika was also understood as "the symbol of the creating, effecting life" and as "race emblem of Germanism"

You know what, I'm going to attribute huge penises to the McDonalds symbol, so any big penis is from now on Ronald McDonald.

[skrtskrt]

So you're simultaneously saying that

1. the Swastika symbol has been around a long time, been used by many cultures and countries, is basically universally recognized

2. but when the Nazis used it, it's not Swastika, because they called it something different, so there's no way to know if they were influenced by the identical symbol that everyone already knew about

[Mo3]

1) Yes

2) No, it might have been influenced in some way, but it's still not the same symbol. Neither symbolic nor visually.

[chimeracoder]

> 2) No, it might have been influenced in some way

Again, just to be clear, it's not that "it might have been influenced in some way". It's that Adolf Hitler specifically talked about his reasons for using the swastika in his manifesto.

> Neither symbolic nor visually.

As explained at length elsewhere in this thread, the two symbols are not visually distinguishable without additional context. You can easily find religious uses of a swastika which are literally visually identical to Nazi uses of a swastika.

[schroeding]

Yes it is, the swastikas of buddhist temples are Hakenkreuze - they just have a different meaning. The Japanese call them Manji - is it also a different symbol? No, it's just a different name.

Take a look at this book from the 19th century, about the religious symbol, notice the name: https://books.google.de/books?id=VbkNkkgHvYgC&pg=PA1&printse...

The orientation does not matter, take a look at the Zeppelintribüne of the Nürnberger Reichsparteitagsgelände - it had a gigantic Hakenkreuz on top, in a non-angled configuration.

[Mo3]

It may very well be the same geometric structure. It is a COMPLETELY different symbol (as in, speaking about symbolic meaning)

The man himself in his book Mein Kampf wrote,

> "I myself, meanwhile, after innumerable attempts, had laid down a final form; a flag with a red background, a white disk, and a black hooked cross in the middle. After long trials I also found a definite proportion between the size of the flag and the size of the white disk, as well as the shape and thickness of the hooked cross."

> "As National Socialists, we see our program in our flag. In red, we see the social idea of the movement; in white, the nationalistic idea; in the hooked cross, the mission of the struggle for the victory of the Aryan man, and, by the same token, the victory of the idea of creative work."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but assigning new symbolic meaning to a symbol results in a new, unrelated symbol.

[schroeding]

You wrote

> Hakenkreuz is not “literally the name for a swastika”. Hakenkreuz literally translates to hooked cross.

But it literally is the translation for swastika. There are books from the 19th century talking about the Hakenkreuze in buddhist temples. And yeah, you can translate it to hooked cross. But English is not the authoritative language on this topic, German is, as the Nazis did not speak english (as their native language).

(Original Nazi sources ahead)

Take a look at this edition of "Volk and Rasse": https://www.google.de/books/edition/Volk_und_Rasse/n9sZAAAAM... On Page 465, there is a description of a "racial school" in Berlin with the name "Swastika". Because it's the same symbol. This Book was published by the Rassehauptamt of the NSDAP, directly by the Nazis.

The Hakenkreuz as a religious swastika is also being mentioned in this book: https://www.google.de/books/edition/Der_S_A_F%C3%BChrer/wdU7... Published for the SA, also directly by the Nazis. They directly reference it as "also a swastika, like our swastika".

[Mo3]

> But it literally is the translation for swastika.

No, it is not. Even Hakenkreuz, in German, does not translate to Swastika.

Hakenkreuz is, as typical for German, made up of two distinct words - Haken, hook, and Kreuz, cross.

It is very likely that "Hakenkreuz" had simply at some point developed upon seeing a Swastika and trying to visually describe it in German, which would make it a pointer/reference. A lot of German words have exactly this mechanism of origin.

Now, I'm not trying to argue with you that a Hakenkreuz simply used to be a reference/pointer to a Swastika, BUT it was only until the original reference was appropriated and perverted by the Nazi regime, making the resulting output most definitely a new and distinct symbol with a new, distinct symbolic meaning.

[schroeding]

I fail to see where you disagree with me, on the ethmological part. Yeah, Hakenkreuz describes the swastika, a "Kreuz" mit "Haken" on the ends, but then... it still is just the German word for swastika, no? Like "Hakaristi" is in suomi / finnish. "Eisenbahn" still is just the word for railroad and not for "iron track", even though it's technically correct :D

"This tempel has a big, golden swastika" could be translated as: "Dieser Tempel hat ein großes goldenes Hakenkreuz" or "Dieser Tempel hat eine große goldene Swastika", neither of them is wrong, even today.

[skrtskrt]

OK so Hakenkreuz is the German name for the thing that the entire English speaking world calls a swastika?

[Mo3]

No… the Swastika has been around for a long time and has a completely different symbolic meaning. It’s also not the same visually.

I’m not responsible for lack of education and mainstream misconceptions, I can only tell you facts.

[skrtskrt]

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Hakenkreuz

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/Hakenkreuz

[Mo3]

Again, this stems from a deliberate mistranslation of a British Christian priest.

[skrtskrt]

It's not a mistranslation.

The symbol is the same symbol.

One is just "what the Nazis called that symbol".

The other is "what everyone else calls that symbol".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

Also translation is not an exact science where the most literal translation like "hooked cross" wins. It's much more often about conveying the meaning to the audience (who all correctly call that symbol a swastika).