[oceanplexian]

> Big companies are drowning in market data. They know some people really, really want small phones. But it's a long-tail opportunity they're willfully ignoring

I would argue that they don’t know what people want at all, since market data just reinforces previously held assumptions. For example if you surveyed people in 2006 what kind of phone they wanted, most consumers would probably ask for a better flip phone. It wasn’t until Apple came along and defined a new market that Smartphones even became a thing in the mainstream consciousness.

[toqy]

Smaller screened smartphones aren't a new market that needs to be defined though. Most people know what they are by virtue of having lived through the era that they were the only choice.

And as OP pointed out, Apple makes a smaller screened smartphone, so they exist. In some comment on this post someone said that it accounts for 3% of Apple's phone sales.

How big is the group of people that want a smaller smart phone but aren't willing or able to switch to Apple? Who knows. My intuition says not many, but maybe we'll find out through OP's efforts. I'm an iPhone user and the only reason I haven't switched to something like the iPhone Mini is because I want the better camera on the pro's.

[robocat]

I suspect there are two constraints working against mini mobiles:

1. The industry push for thin due to the consumer dislike of thick.

2. The invisible consumer expectation that smaller mobiles should be cheaper.

A mini screen with a fat body (large battery, good camera) is what many functionally oriented people should want, but cost and form will limit consumer desire and make it an extremely niche product?!?

Edit: I am thinking more Canon IXUS cross bred with a 20000mAh powerbank and stock Android One. In fact Canon or another reliable camera brand would be the perfect manufacturer. Fat and robust could work: sell the functionally ugly to practical tradesmen type? Unfortunately writer desires thin and light, which I don’t care about. No need for front-facing camera, instead put a 1” (4:3?) screen on the side of the main camera to allow for pointing/framing when doing selfies.

Functionally oriented people often have other constraints. I have tight constraints for mobiles: I am price sensitive (I break or lose phones), I want vanilla Android (manufacturer skinned often has broken upgrades & broken privacy & broken features), and I generally won’t buy products from extremely niche brands (unpredictable reliability, & trust issues).

[Miraste]

It's been tried. Although it could've been a better design, it didn't go over well.

https://thenextweb.com/news/bad-news-for-anyone-who-wanted-t...

[robocat]

¡Awesome! Even if shit execution, fugly, one-trick gimmick, with terrible branding.

* “Other manufacturers have managed to make a success of selling high-capacity smartphones. BlackView (and, for that matter, Ulephone, Doogee, and AGM) does especially well. Although they come with ginormous cells, they’re primarily designed to be hardy, and can take more of a beating than Mickey Rourke in the boxing ring.”

* “French smartphone manufacturer Avenir Telecom attempted to crowdfund the P18K on Indiegogo, but ultimately failed in a way that was previously unthinkable for a project that’s attracted so much press coverage and public interest. In total, Avenir Telecom ‘sold’ sixteen (absolute) units.”

* “there are people who would benefit from a phone with a 18,000 mAh battery. I’m talking about military users, people working in the oil and gas industry, famers, and even truckers. Avenir did nothing to cater to this valuable niche.”

* “The P18K, on the other hand, lacked waterproofing and shockproofing, making it thoroughly unsuitable for outdoor users.”

* “Avenir Telecom wanted €600 for a phone with the internals of a €200 phone. Without anything extra – like ruggedization – that’s a hard sell. It just didn’t represent good value for customers.”

* “Measuring several inches thick”

I was exaggerating a little by saying 20000mAh: about 5000 to 10000 would probably be sweet.

Also camera lenses on the P18K were not flush with reverse side - ugggh. There should be a proper shutter button (positioning and half-press to hold focus). Lenses needs protection eg. manual sliding shutter which when opened puts phone into camera mode (I have cracked mobile phone camera lenses).

Plenty of people want a proper waterproof camera (low light, macro, Tele, optical image stabilisation) in their pocket, and why not combine that with hardy mobile phone?

I can imagine making the screen plus battery plus the USB port all as a single user-replaceable part? Those are the usual culprits that get broken or need replacing.

Edit: Slight edits above for clarity. Also see Blackview Pro 11000mAh https://thenextweb.com/news/this-bonkers-chinese-phone-holds...

[hattmall]

I love the big battery stuff but I don't see how it's profitable because powerbanks, powerbanks cases, and even magnetic or clipon wireless charging powerbanks exist and can cheaply be tailored to fit tons of phones. What benefit would a massive battery confer over a massive battery bank case. One that would be swappable / replaceable. I only recently gave up my S5 with a 10,000mAh extended battery. But with powerbanks and wireless charging it doesn't seem like a real market anymore.

[efreak]

> powerbanks, powerbanks cases, and even magnetic or clipon wireless charging powerbanks exist and can cheaply be tailored to fit tons of phones

This is true. This is also irrelevant if nobody actually does it. My nexus 7 tablet survived 6 years with a dead battery due to having qi charging. For every phone I've bought since then, I have searched for charging cases and not found even a single one at the time. This includes the moto e2, moto G5, moto G6, and my current Samsung phone (a32 or something, can't recall at the moment; it's the free T-Mobile 5g phone). Basically I wanted something that ideally supported wireless charging, but at minimum was semi-permanently attached to the charging port (charger built into the case itself to protect my port).

[Miraste]

I think 20000mAh is achievable now. I have a 20k battery pack on my desk and it’s pocketable, if heavy. Much thinner than the Energizer phone. I’m picturing your phone design as an original Galaxy Fold, but solid instead of the hinge/internal screen. The chassis could fit more than a 10k battery easily, and the shape is simple to ruggedize.

> Avenir Telecom wanted €600 for a phone with the internals of a €200 phone.

This is the big issue. Avenue’s not to blame here. It’s unavoidable, the design is just too non-standard.

If you could get a military contract then it might work.

[fomine3]

* Small battery capacity

* Lower performance due to small battery and poorer heat dissipation

* No physical space to put top-tier camera

[Dylan16807]

The battery doesn't have to be small if you're okay with moderate thickness. And a lot of power goes to the screen so that cancels out. To the extent that this is true, you're just restating "push for thin" and it's not a separate problem.

Lower performance than what? I'm not convinced that's a real issue unless you're trying to make a flagship.

Why couldn't you fit a top-tier camera? That's like a square centimeter.

[robocat]

> That's like a square centimeter.

I was thinking much larger optics and mechanicals, similar to a PowerShot N (except with modern video specs): Optical image stabilization, 8x optical zoom, 1/2.3" Sensor (6.17mm x 4.55 mm), Maximum aperture F3–5.9, Macro focus range 1cm. A real camera: even though I realise in the past there have been plenty of failed camera-phones in the marketplace!

https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Canon+PowerShot+N+Teardown/6...

https://m.dpreview.com/products/canon/compacts/canon_n/speci...

[Dylan16807]

Oh, well that's just a phone limitation, not a small phone limitation.

[GekkePrutser]

Apple's limited success is not only a factor of the screen size but also market positioning. The mini is inferior in some specs to other iPhones but at the same time really high end as far as mobiles in general go. That makes it a niche product even if screen size was not a factor at all.

It targets people that have plenty of cash for a flagship but are willing to forego the top tier specs for a smaller size. Apple prefers you just buy the pro. And if you don't have much cash you can get the reheated 2017 iphone 8 with SE slapped on it :)

I bet if they made a mini T the price of an SE with a more limited camera and screen spec than the current mini it would take 50% of SE sales away.

You can't judge the market viability of one aspect based on a single model.

[alwillis]

The mini is inferior in some specs to other iPhones

I’m typing this on my iPhone 13 mini; saying it’s inferior to the rest of the iPhone 13 is an overstatement.

All of the core features are the same as they rest of the line.

Ironically it’s the largest iPhone I’ve owned, having upgraded from an iPhone 7 and a 6s before that.

There probably won’t be iPhone 14 mini, so I’m glad I was able to get this form factor before I had no choice.

[GekkePrutser]

I mean compared to the pro.

I would consider both flagship models, considering the pricing. For me mid-range is < 500€ (and normally way below that) so the iPhone SE doesn't even qualify here in Europe (it's 529€).

My current mid-range phone is a Samsung A52s which costs 329€.

But perhaps my long Android history has skewed my pricing concepts somewhat.

[Wowfunhappy]

Wait, is the iPhone Mini larger than an iPhone 6/7/8?! I thought it was smaller.

[inferiorhuman]

Dimensions in millimeters:

13: 71.5 x 146.7 x 7.65 13 Mini: 64.2 x 131.5 x 7.65 3rd gen SE: 67.3 x 138.4 x 7.3 1st gen SE: 58.6 x 123.8 x 7.6

I strongly prefer the 1st gen SE because it's significantly easier for me to use with one hand, it's got a completely flat back (no camera bulge), and it's got a headphone jack and home button.

[hamburglar]

All the same reasons for me. Plus I like cheap. I just bought a 3rd gen SE but only because my 7 was on its last legs. The idea that an iPhone 7 isn’t good enough anymore is just absolutely silly to me. I was hoping the 3rd gen SE would be a throwback in size and cost $300, but I didn’t get my wish.

[kurthr]

iPhone mini is almost exactly the same size in the hand (2.5" width) as the iPhone4/5 and smaller than 6/7/8/SE (2.7" width) , but the screen coverage/diag is significantly larger than the SE (85%/5.4" vs 60%/4.7").

I think he meant diag screen size? The 11/12/13 are 6.1" while maxs are 6.7"

[alwillis]

Yes, I meant diagonal screen size.

[reflexco]

They really had the room to put a x2 zoom camera on there though... what a shame they didn't.

[thefourthchime]

The biggest issue for me is the battery. The first mini had horrible battery life, I know the 13 is better. The fact is I'm spoiled rotten with the Pro battery life and don't see the size winning me over.

[yowzadave]

Same—I just bought a new iPhone…I thought the mini was right for me, but after three days of using it, it was clear that the battery life was worse than my years-old Pro. So I returned it and got the Pro instead.

The other challenge was that I found it hard to go back to the smaller onscreen keyboard and display. I think I was deluded about my vision being as good as it was 10 years ago!

[hedgehog]

Even the small phone user base is probably fragmented between people who want a lower cost phone and people like me that want the Pro or better, just smaller.

[8ytecoder]

Apple already has the SE for the low cost market. They have positioned the mini as the mid-range. What they're missing is a high-end small phone. I'd happily pay for it.

[derefr]

The current SE isn't a small phone; it's a previous-era-of-design phone. It's a phone from before phones gave you as much screen as would fit on the front face of the body. If you want that, you can just buy any new-old-stock phone from 5 years ago; they're all cheap, they're all that size, and they're all (IMHO) painful to read or watch anything on.

A low-cost small phone would be the opposite of the SE: not good-specs, bad-screen; but rather all-screen, bad-specs. An iPhone Mini minus-minus.

[GekkePrutser]

Agreed, I think this is not only for the reason of cheap manufacturing (I doubt it's a lot cheaper than just reusing the iPhone XR case). I think it's just a conscious disincentivisation (word?) from Apple to avoid cannibalising their mainline models :) I'm surprised it's so popular, because I really don't miss the bezel. All-screen phones are a great advancement.

If I had an iPhone I would seriously miss the fingerprint scanner but this is not an issue on Android, the in-screen option works amazingly well.

[2muchcoffeeman]

iPhone 13 mini.

Having said that, the specs of the SE are nothing to sneeze at.

[hedgehog]

It doesn't have the full camera.

Edit: I'm not sure what the disagreement is but it's objectively verifiable that the 13 Mini does not have the same camera setup as the 13 Pro.

[zippergz]

Indeed, I desperately want a smaller phone, but I heavily use the camera on my phone and in the end I decided I wasn't willing to give up camera quality for the iPhone Mini. So Apple's data may suggest that I don't want a small phone, but the reality is that I want a small phone that's actually as good as the big ones. No one has offered that.

[bigiain]

My last couple of phone purchases have actually been camera purchases.

I got an iPhone XR for the low light performance of the camera, not because I needed a new phone.

I got a 13Pro for the cameras and lidar, not because I needed a new phone.

My reality is I want a great camera that fits in my pocket and is durable - that also makes calls, runs Signal, streams Spotify/AppleMusic, and has a usable web browser...

[toqy]

Same, I went from original SE to 11 pro max because of camera envy. Maybe once all of my kids are a bit older I won't care as much about the camera though.

[nicoburns]

> The mini is inferior in some specs to other iPhones but at the same time really high end as far as mobiles in general go. That makes it a niche product even if screen size was not a factor at all.

I feel like it being smaller is a factor in it having inferior specs: much easier to fit a better camera etc into a larger body.

[Nition]

> How big is the group of people that want a smaller smart phone but aren't willing or able to switch to Apple?

It just feels like surely capturing 100% of the market for premium small Android phones (there really are none right now) must be at least as good as yet another large Android phone entering a market full of large Android phones.

[kingcharles]

None of the leaked specs (if real) for iPhone 14 include a "Mini" variant, so it looks like Apple killed theirs.

I'm going to buy a 13 Mini because of Apple's long term support, so it should last me a good few years.

[lotsofpulp]

I do not care if they do not make a new mini every year. I just want a mini available for purchase, and the 13 mini should be very capable for at least a few more years.

[usrusr]

That might actually be what Apple is doing, skipping mini for 14, but not stopping mini forever. Sony did the same, there where Compacts of Z1, Z3 and Z5.

[jdironman]

“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” - Henry Ford.

However, in this day and time when it comes to established tech such as a smart phone, sometimes the best way to 'innovate' might be to give people what they actually want. Sure not all companies can cater all niches. But hopefully someone will! Im also a small phone advocate.

[kristianc]

“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” - Henry Ford.

Just a note that this quote, and a similar one by Steve Jobs (‘Market research could never have given us the Macintosh’) are amongst the most misinterpreted in history. Most people see them as saying ‘market research is useless’ - what both were actually saying is that you need to take a new innovation to the customer and _then_ ask them what they think of it.

So no, don’t just flat out ask people what they want - but intuit and give people a little taste of what they could have - and then ask them what they think.

[perlpimp]

What people think say and do are 3 mostly unrelated things. so yes it really fits into whole life really.

[dismantlethesun]

Also horses that could run at 100mph for 5 hours at a time would be far better than early cars. They run on clean renewable fuel, have built in natural intelligence to avoid crashes and carry drunk drivers, and come in a variety of pleasing colors (not just black!).

The main benefit of cars was that if you delay maintenance your transportation doesn’t die.

[SoftTalker]

The emissions weren't so pleasant, however!

[cco]

> The emissions weren't so pleasant, however!

Do you mean from cars or horses? If the former, early automobiles were far cleaner than the animals they replaced (and still are). Cities faced huge issues with animal excrement and cars represented a cleaner alternative.

[bigDinosaur]

Obviously you can't do such a simplistic direct comparison between horse emissions and car emissions. How does leaded petrol play into this comparison, particulates, etc.

[cco]

You're totally right, my comment was far too simplistic. However it captures the feelings at the time, cars at that time were far "cleaner" in that they smelled a lot better, did not clog streets with excrement etc

Obviously play the car out a few decades and the emissions were _not_ so clean.

[6510]

But you do get self replication. Try wrapping your head around that feature.

[MichaelZuo]

By the time any consumer product offers self replication as a feature, would anyone even remember what smartphones were?

[_carbyau_]

Have people not seen any sci fi with self replicating mechanicals? It never goes well. Humans wouldn't be around for very long to remember anything at all.

[frosted-flakes]

Do you mean 10 mph?

[simondotau]

There’s still a market for faster horses.

[bigiain]

There's still a market for buggy whips too.

No VC firm is investing millions expecting a 100x return in buggy whip startups though.

[simondotau]

No, but if you need a buggy whip, they are available in sufficient quantity relative to demand.

[boznz]

>For example if you surveyed people in 2006 what kind of phone they wanted, most consumers would probably ask for a better flip phone.

Better flip phone would be good too.

[pbhjpbhj]

Samsung make one called the Z-flip. Way too expensive for me, but to me it's the better flip phone I've been waiting for since 2005!

[drited]

I have the Z-Flip 3 and love it. It meets the 2 criteria of the post's 4 that matter to me:

1.fits nicely in pocket. I can sit down comfortably with it in a pair of jeans. No dodgy posture.

2. Won't fall out of my pocket

Its screen is also much less likely to break like has happened with all my old phones when they accidentally fall out of jacket pocket

[metadat]

Just don't drop it on the hinge.

Also the z-flip battery life is atrocious, and the CPU is old prev gen tech.

I really want a top tier foldable.

[drited]

I too want a foldable with the latest generation tech but is that available today?

At the time I bought the z-flip 3 my understanding was that the tradeoff was unavoidable. My opinion at the time of purchase was that the incremental benefit of the latest version of CPU, camera and battery were pretty marginal relative to the large benefit from the unique form factor.

I'm not currently in the market but that could well have changed if new foldables have since been released.

[scarface74]

Apple has market data - they sold a premium small phone for two years. Rumors are that they will be discontinuing them this year.

[krzyk]

It was almost premium. Still didn't had Pros camera.

Real example was Pixel until version 4. The only difference between smaller and bigger versions was the obvious screen and battery.

[peregren]

That’s splitting hairs. Premium ≠ Best in all components. And the iPhone 12 and 13 have sold pretty well by all reports so the screen size is the only differentiator feature wise. (And battery which is unavoidable)

[scarface74]

And Google also stopped selling smaller phones…

[fomine3]

non-mini iPhone 12/13 are sold well enough.

[chirau]

Last month I had to use an Essentials PH-1 phone for a day while i waited for a new phone. It was the perfect size for me and the build quality was really nice. Unfortunately, the OS was outdate and the specs not as high. It has 4GB RAM, Snapdragon 825, 13MP camera @ 2160p and a 5.7" display.

It looked premium, it felt premium and was the perfect size. If someone could pack more punch with specs in that phone I would buy it for even $1k.

[johnebgd]

I’ve owned smart phones since the treo.

I’ve owned blackberry phones, windows mobile, even a palm pre.

I’ve had nearly every iPhone since launch.

I’m on an iPhone 13 Pro Max.

Nothing makes me yearn for a smaller screen.

I held an iPhone 3G in my hand last week after finding it in a drawer and was amazed at how it felt too small to be really useful these days.

My gal has a 13 pro max.

My folks have larger phones.

My siblings have larger phones.

My friends, colleagues, business partners, clients, all have larger phones.

The biggest complaint I hear is battery life.

I hope small screen fans find what they want but I do not believe it’s a big market.

[davidthewatson]

The reason it's not a big market is that if glove-sizing worked the same way as phones, you'd have people with small glove size walking around in ginormous gloves. That's not the case because glove sizing actually behaves rationally, as opposed to truck-sizing, where every human in America wants a ginormous truck regardless of their actual need. Sadly, phones follow trucks, not gloves, because the former is ego-driven, not need-driven. Apple deserves credit for recognizing the counter-example to its own market presence and engages fully around it while no competitor follows suit.

[stevage]

Agreed. When I bought the original Samsung Galaxy Note, my friends all thought it was hilariously, ridiculously, impractically large. It was smaller than my current Pixel 5.

Yes, this phone is hard to use one handed, but the value of the large screen outweighs everything else.

[madeofpalk]

"They" say that people just don't by the smaller iPhone. People always go for the larger + cheaper thing.

Apple has weird economics where I'm sure they profit handsomely from iPhone Mini, but they tend to get rid of things if they don't make $10b annually.

[sorry_outta_gas]

> most consumers would probably ask for a better flip phone

I'm not sure about that, sidekicks, plan and blackberry were pretty popular and gaining a lot of mainstream interest for modern 'smartphone' type things

[stingrae]

Unfortunately it has been tested. Rumors say that there won't be an iPhone 14 mini. (Sent from an iPhone 12 mini).

[heavyset_go]

Slate phones were already a trend before the iPhone.