Would be better to incentivize 24 hour grocery stores to provide low cost leases to fast DC charge networks. 20-30 minutes grocery shopping or dining is the new charge experience, versus five minute fill ups at your traditional petrol dispenser. Those who can will charge at home or work most of the time.
> 20-30 minutes grocery shopping or dining is the new charge experience
I would say charging at work (during the day, using solar energy exported into the grid). Or at night, capturing off-peak power generation is the new charge experience.
Currently, DC Fast Charging is very expensive to build out and using them frequently reduces battery capacity over time.
I agree, but DC fast charging is mandatory for road trips, and a necessary shim until work, home, and apartment charging infra gets scaled out (a friend has a Tesla but no home charging, they charge at the grocery store once per week, for example).
Colocate level 2 chargers (~10-15kw) where cars dwell for hours at a time, put Fast DC chargers where people need to eat or use a bathroom. Even a 120v outlet would be fine for use cases like long term parking at an airport, which fully charges an EV in ~4-5 days.
Agreed! As someone who just completed a 2,000 mile electric road trip, it wasn't TOO inconvenient, but we had to choose our dining based on what was near the charger, and we mostly chose our lodging based on who had overnight charging available.
Shopping and meals fit really well into the (traveling) charging use case. I think a cafe would work as well, but I haven't visited a successful "charge cafe" yet.
Of course, the most convenient charging is just plugging it in overnight at home, but travel stops are real use cases, too...
While I agree with the sentiment, I think some subsidization will be needed. Your average Mom and Pop diner can't possibly afford to pay full price to install a charging system. If you wait for the market to build it, they either will never get built or will only be built by the Walmarts of the world, the only ones who can afford it.
This seems misguided to me. One of the biggest benefits to an EV is not having to go to a gas station. Most people can charge at home for their typical needs. Next, it makes sense to put then at a person's work, then at stores or public parking. And of course there needs to be charging infrastructure on highway gas stations and/or rest stops. Making all gas stations, especially urban ones, pay a fine for not having chargers is stupid.
Many people can not charge at home. Where I live (Toronto), street parking is common. It's not possible to charge on the street near your house. Condos have parking garages and unless they put a charger at each single spot, most of those people can't charge either.
Toyota has it right - there are huge issues to be solved before widespread roll out of EV is possible. The charging question is just one of them.
"It's not possible to charge on the street near your house."
This seems like a huge opportunity considering how much Street parking there is. Several interesting approaches come to mind for providing this, from running lockable (hardware and software) charging cables to empower residents to set up charging infrastructure of their home (plus legal changes to designate those spaces for those who improved them; to public infrastructure in the curbs.
"there are huge issues to be solved before widespread roll out of EV is possible."
I agree. One of the biggest issues in my mind is just deciding if we want to standardize and create infrastructure as a society, or if we want to empower individuals to make the changes they require.
It's definitely asking for a lot. For my building's parking structure, that would require at least $5 million worth of upgrades to the electrical system, and we're not even the biggest condo building on the block.
The outlet isn't a big deal. The infrastructure to support it is. You need to pay the supplier for additional supply lines, an electrician for the panel and other customer side infrastructure. That's the expensive part.
Most people don’t need a supply upgrade, because they can shift most of the charging to night time, and the majority of people don’t use as much power at night as during the day. Unless they have a very small service. But most people have it sized to support a stove, electric dryer and A/C, if they got service relatively recently. And most electric companies will do the service upgrade for cheap if necessary, because they’ll make it back from more electric use.
They do need an electrician to run the new wires to the garage though.
Depending on the current electrical system and the number of outlets you’re adding it could consist of a significant upgrade to the electrical infrastructure in the building.
In the context of charging multiple vehicles simultaneously at gas stations, apartments, etc, it's almost a certainty that the building infrastructure would need to be upgraded. Newer 200 amp SFH can likely charge one car at a time with minimal upgrades.
If people can't charge their vehicles at home (inside their garage), I see that as a burden on the city to provide adequate street based charging stations...similar to parking meters they already have.
Why doesn't the city install gas pumps along the streets as well?
Parking meters are not comparable infrastructure. They often run on a small solar cell with almost no maintenance burden. Charging stations require a substantive amount of power and regular maintenance. Installing street chargers essentially requires entirely net new infrastructure.
"Why doesn't the city install gas pumps along the streets as well?"
Because the process for pumping gas is fundamentally different from charging. If filling up a gas tank took hours, then you likely would see this sort of infrastructure. Also, it doesn't need to be the city directly. They can contract this to a private provider.
Yeah, the city should step in to fill this role. Perhaps they could pass some sort of law requiring that current oil-based infrastructure has to support battery charging as well. Gas stations might be a particularly good target, since they are already geographically optimized for refueling vehicles.
> Toyota has it right - there are huge issues to be solved before widespread roll out of EV is possible. The charging question is just one of them.
Not sure what Toyota has to do with anything (can't find them mentioned in the article), but I think that problem is a catch-22 problem. No one is gonna want to solve any issues about EV roll out unless people start using EV, but no one is gonna want to use EV unless there is realistic attempts on solving the issues.
They're probably referencing the fact that Toyota has hedged their bets on hydrogen fuel instead of electric. As far as I'm aware though, that hedge has been going poorly for them.
Most old high rises in the West End do not have the spare wattage to install even one charger in the underground parkade much less several. Getting some from BC Hydro is expensive and they really, really don't want to because they don't have much to spare either. It'll be likely 2030 before we get more. https://www.bchydro.com/energy-in-bc/projects/west-end-subst...
Also, the demand grows as climate change hits Vancouver hard -- check out the heat dome last summer. Spending money on an AC was laughable luxury before but now?
There are no gas stations left in the West End and only one on the entire downtown peninsula which has been on sale already several times. I was answering about home charging for a non-trivial amount of the population.
The rest of the city is supplied well, it's just the peninsula which doesn't have enough. It is also one of the densest places in Canada.
The gas station needs to pay a design firm + engineers to submit plans to the city for permitting to construct the new EV charging location, they have to pay the electrical utility to increase its service, they need to pay more for electricity every month, they need to buy commercial car chargers and pay an electrical contractor thousands to install them. The gas station therefore likely has to raise prices on either its gas or its other products and services, hurting locals who can't afford EV cars to the benefit of the better off who likely already have car chargers installed in the garages of their expensive homes. Bear in mind also that they're not guaranteed to make money off the car charging, this is the city deciding their business plans for them. The cost of building a charging station takes away what could've been a car wash, more retail space, a mechanic's garage, etc. The city should be offering tax incentives, not punitive fines IMO.
Emphasis mine. Sure. The city could fine every store with parking spaces for not supplying charging infrastructure. We also have to see what those fines do to the businesses. It's possible that many gas stations decide to close or substantially raise their prices to cover the increased costs.
There are no immediate downsides. I'm not going to pretend to predict the future in it's entirety, but requiring any business to maintain any sort of additional infrastructure seems like it will lead to additional costs. I'm not saying that as a reason to avoid ever doing it, but let's not pretend it doesn't have consequences. This either means more expensive gas station visits (for at least some people), or it means fewer gas stations exists due to being priced out from the additional costs. Now, how those changes affect the local economy at large is anyone's guess.
I agree with that, and would add that gas stations aren't particularly suitable for EV charging. They're often built on small lots and rely on high throughput to serve a lot of customers. EV charging is slower and therefore requires more space for the same level of throughput.
There's nothing inherently wrong with a gas station having one or two charging stations, but if EV charging is in demand then those spots are going to be filled most of the time. Which means that it's not a reliable service for the people who want it; better to go to a larger lot with more spaces. (And this proposal also includes mandates for sites with more than 60 parking stalls to get EV charging, which I think makes more sense.)
There's a natural tendency to want to shoehorn petroleum-based infrastructure into the world of electrically powered vehicles, but it kind of feels like trying to bolt a catalytic converter onto a horse. I think gas stations should just be allowed to die out and be replaced by other kinds of businesses based on what the market demands.
Agreed, and for more reasons than those you mention. This would increase costs of gas on poorer people (who can't afford a shiny new EV) to subsidize more convenient charging for wealthier people (who aren't even buying gas). It's effectively an additional tax on gasoline that gas station owners will pass on to all their customers who do buy gas.
Not perfect, but simply saying "no" is not an option. New build has to accommodate EV charging (both condos and 'regular' residential (220V line pre-plumbed)).
Condo boards are made up of the residents who live in their buildings, so they do collectively own their own infrastructure. They will have to move in that direction, but it certainly is possible.
Some more nuance, is that not every home will have a garage or even off-street parking. So even if you own your apartment, you may still be out of luck for charging where you live.
That issue will only get worse as housing gets denser, so some kind of publicly accessible charging will be necessary. Maybe that means apartment blocks, units and townhouses start putting in outlets near the street, but I can see that getting really tricky. For street parking you have the vandalism aspect, which is kind-of working for corporations who can stomach the cost, but I doubt it would fly for landlords.
If they rent, where do they park at that residence? That's where it makes sense to charge. How many of the renters without parking have a car?
If it's really true that "Most people in Canada" don't have a home, then do you really think that the 66 gas stations in Vancouver can accommodate all those people?
On the street, or shared parking lots, or yes indeed, not at all. Try organizing an on-the-sidewalk charging station for your unit block, even if you own your unit, you've got to convince your strata/hoa to plan, consult councils, build and maintain it.
Then who pays for the electricity? At the moment at least, you're pretty likely to be the only one with an EV, so either everyone is paying strata fees to charge your car for you, or you're in some boutique agreement outside the strata and they put in a meter just for you, or you've payed for the whole thing on your own. Forget it entirely if you're renting.
Yeah, that's why I mentioned public infrastructure as one of the options for on-street charging.
The other reason I raise this, is that it could be more beneficial to fine the landlords or strata rather than gas stations. After all, if the goal is to increase charging infrastructure, there is more potential capacity here than at 66 gas stations and the paradigm for charging at longer duration parking spaces (home, work, restaurants) is more effective than charging at a short stop location (gas sations).
Even if you own something, there's no guarantee that you have your own private parking space to install EV chargers. Where I live (an old, very dense downtown), some houses don't have a driveway, and most can only accommodate a single car. Street parking is very common for residents. On top of that, apartments aren't guaranteed to have EV chargers installed.
What if they changed to law to allow residents that install charging infrastructure to have some preference/reservation of the spot they they improved in front of their residence?
Perhaps these needs additional tech. Something like a cable run from the house to the parking spot, enclosed under a grate that can be unlocked by the resident, as well as a lockout switch inside the house. Of course it could be better for the infrastructure to be public or for the city to contract with a private provider.
Yeah, certainly there could be more creative solutions here. Running power out to the street is a challenging and big job (particularly when there's sidewalks and other city property involved), but I definitely agree that gas stations aren't the most ideal solution, just that "put a charger in your driveway" isn't a universal home run of a solution.
I've usually parked my car on the street while renting, I just make sure that this is possible in neighborhoods that I've chosen to rent. Because of this I've never purchased an EV.
> Most people can charge at home for their typical needs
A lot of people in Vancouver can't!
For example they may live in an apartment building whose strata council refuses to install chargers in the garage, or they may live in somebody's basement suite and not have access to a garage at all.
As a former strata treasurer: believe me, we wanted to. We had the votes, city had a nice incentive. But our building -- and indeed most high rises in the West End built '59-'73 -- simply didn't have enough wattage and when we asked BC Hydro for more the answer was an absolutely staggering amount of money since you needed to dig up the street and the house property to get the cables in. (And be God merciful on you if there are trees to mess with because the city won't be -- it is probably easier to get a license to kill than getting a permit to replace trees in the West End.) And it's the same amount of digging for 50A or 500A so it only makes sense to ask for as much as you can and BC Hydro has little left until the new substation comes online and now it seems that won't be before 2029.
Times like these, you need to consider if you had a spare 50A (we didn't) would you spend that on another drier or an EV charger?
"For example they may live in an apartment building whose strata council refuses to install chargers in the garage,"
True, but then why fine these gas stations? It would make more sense to fine landlords for not providing charging infrastructure under some circumstances (on request, or above some unit number, or even just free market of renters being willing to pay more for a rental with charging infrastructure).
"or they may live in somebody's basement suite and not have access to a garage at all."
True, I was thinking of the public chargers for this as they are likely street parking.
Having sat around in EVs charging with nothing to do, it would be better for Vancouver to incentivize charging stations at places where people might spend that time doing something, like stores, restaurants, etc. It would also be nice for chargers to be installed for street parking in popular areas.
Sitting at a gas station for a half hour to an hour sounds more like punishment for having an EV.
Most gas stations in my area are located near other amenities. Your average driver will still be inclined to hang out at their car though, since getting to those other stores and restaurants involves walking across huge parking lots or along high speed, pedestrian hostile roads.
Exactly; mandating chargers at gas stations has to be one of the worst thought-out policy ideas for charging infrastructure that I've seen.
An urban Target store in my area has a row of chargers along one wall of its parking garage. A carrot, stick, or both to encourage that in other places with large parking areas, especially ones where people are likely to stay awhile, would certainly seem like the way to go.
Weird. Spend winters California , and one year I had a slow leak in my tire.
I could fill it every 4 days and be fine, so I did just that. I found one broken air compressor hose, which I mentioned to the station owner. He ordered a replacement immediately.
Our of maybe 50 uses, while travelling all over California, staying in a dozen different places, it seems to me that your reports are inaccurate.
(I prefer to fix my car at home, with mechanics I know.)
Twenty years ago I remember it being a constant issue in central California. Gas stations would have air compressors that had the hose ends cut off and stolen. I haven't had in issue in quite a while though.
Gas stations are already setup as places where cars are coming and going frequently. As cars move from gas to electric, the use of these places transitions smoothly.
It's a pigouvian tax: tax the things we want less of; in this case gas stations without chargers. I always kind of like those.
Has anyone noticed lately there's an overwhelming number of laws designed more for virtue signalling than effectiveness? Straws for example. Shouldn't we be writing laws banning plastic straws rather than fine places for passing them out without being asked.
Also for EVs if there is a lot of money in charging networks, wouldn't the market just "work" for that. I'm kind of sick of liberal politics (but not liberal ideas - like people buying EVs and supporting a clean environment).
As someone who as lived and worked in Vancouver most of my life. The current administration at city hall is the worst in this regard that we have ever had. Under there watch the city has drastically declined.
Given it's Vancouver couldn't they crank up the property taxes instead? Might relieve some of the real estate pressure coming from second-home owners as well - win-win!
Vancouver could certainly increase property taxes across the board – a very divisive issue with strong support in some corners and vociferous opposition in others – but the city doesn't have the authority to adjust property taxes in special cases, for example for properties that don't provide EV charging. That would require a legal change by the province.
Could they just generally increase taxes across the board, and give out cash to properties that provide EV charging (not as a rebate, but other incentive)?
Ahh yes because raising property taxes definitely makes housing more affordable.
I’m going to start creating leases for renters where they have a choice to pay less overall rent, but they pay property taxes, or they don’t pay property taxes but pay more in rent.
So for example lease will be $2000 a month, or $1600 a month plus property taxes that are currently $300 a month.
Gas stations are literally the worst places to put EV chargers. Just mandate that every employer with >50 employees has X chargers, Y of which must be publicly accessible.
> Gas stations would be required to provide 50 kilowatts of charging power — enough for one DC fast charger.
Convenience is greatly sacrificed if only one charger is installed — it'll be a gamble if your local gas station has their charger free, etc., which makes planning on when to charge tricky. As many gas stations are likely to only invest the bare minimum to avoid this fee, this could become a common frustration if this goes ahead.
> Modelling provided to the city estimated that about 30 per cent of gas stations and 40 per cent of parking lots would install chargers by 2030
Basically, they expect the majority of gas stations and parking lots to just pay the fee instead. Pretty solid indictment of the economics of installing chargers when even a 10k/year penalty isn't enough to tip the scale.
I'm a fan of the Youtube channel The Straight Pipes. This is always their biggest complaint about EVs. They drive in the Toronto area and it's not uncommon for 50-75% of the chargers to be non-functional.
I like this approach a lot better than the municipal curb-side charging stations that a lot of cities are building. The former naturally scales up and down with overall demand for cars, while the latter further entrenches cars as the dominant transportation method by making it virtually impossible to convert those curb spaces to other uses.
Sorry what? A fast charging spot handles maybe one car every 15 minutes. The smallest gas station handles 4 cars every 5 minutes. Using gas station land for fast charging doesn't make sense... far better off requiring grocery stores, parks, shopping centers, etc. to install banks of fast chargers. That way there's at least something more to do while waiting for charge than... "hang out at a gas station for far longer than anyone save perhaps beggars/drug addicts would willingly subject themselves to"
I'm not passing judgement on the proposal, I am merely pointing out that there is no need to "provide EV parking" to comply - all that is required is a single spot, which obviously already exists otherwise the gas station itself would not exist. If a gas station is so busy supplying internal combustion vehicles that it cannot free up even a single spot for a charging station, then presumably they can also afford to pay the fee.
It's true that it would be better for the user of the electric vehicle to have some stuff to do nearby the spot where they are charging, but in this hypothetical situation where a gas station is so small that they can barely cram a single charging spot in, presumably the gas station is also located walking distance from plenty of shops, parks and other facilities.
Legally will never happen. Will be challenged and while maybe they reserve the right to approve new locations with this (minor) stipulation not going to take existing businesses and wack them with a $10k fee like this. And forgetting the purpose or the reason simply not what you do.
It seems like there are ways to make this legally viable. Perhaps raise the business license fees for gas stations by $10k a year and then offer a rebate for stations that install EV charging. I feel like that would pass legal muster, if they could make it work politically.
Waiting anywhere while your car is charging seems like an awful user experience. I've always imagined that a quick battery swap service would become the standard. Don't know how feasible it is though, maybe someone can shed more light on that.
We would need to develop a single standard and a limited number of battery sizes for this to ever be feasible. Go look at how many different starter batteries your typical auto parts store has to stock. Now imagine doing that with batteries that are much larger and much riskier if they are stored/handled improperly.
I can't imagine it, which is why I asked. You certainly seem skeptical. Your arguments aren't very convincing though.
>> Too many different start batteries
Okay... that's because there's no standard. But isn't that why standards are developed? Could you explain why developing a standard and a limited number of battery sizes is not feasible?
>> Risk of storing and handling them improperly
Could you explain why batteries are riskier than petrol?
And while we're discussing this China's decided to try it out [0].
Gas stations sell gas but also the use of land. I doubt the economics are still going to work out when drivers are staying for 45+ minutes. EV charging likely needs higher value activities attached, like shopping, to subsidize the parking.
I think fewer gas stations is the intended outcome. I don't know anyone who would want to spend 15 minutes at a gas station let alone an hour. I just wonder if some chains have been preparing for this eventuality by slowly transforming themselves. I know Speedway has added cafes to some of their stores.
Any other highway locations would be better. Best thing about an EV is you fill up next to a restaurant or cafe. Never have to go to a gas station again
I think gas stations should charge 10k annual fee to Vancouver for the inconvenience of having endless lines of cars waiting to park and take space to recharge for hours if they choose to install electric charging products.