[giantg2]

This seems misguided to me. One of the biggest benefits to an EV is not having to go to a gas station. Most people can charge at home for their typical needs. Next, it makes sense to put then at a person's work, then at stores or public parking. And of course there needs to be charging infrastructure on highway gas stations and/or rest stops. Making all gas stations, especially urban ones, pay a fine for not having chargers is stupid.

[james_pm]

Many people can not charge at home. Where I live (Toronto), street parking is common. It's not possible to charge on the street near your house. Condos have parking garages and unless they put a charger at each single spot, most of those people can't charge either.

Toyota has it right - there are huge issues to be solved before widespread roll out of EV is possible. The charging question is just one of them.

[giantg2]

"It's not possible to charge on the street near your house."

This seems like a huge opportunity considering how much Street parking there is. Several interesting approaches come to mind for providing this, from running lockable (hardware and software) charging cables to empower residents to set up charging infrastructure of their home (plus legal changes to designate those spaces for those who improved them; to public infrastructure in the curbs.

"there are huge issues to be solved before widespread roll out of EV is possible."

I agree. One of the biggest issues in my mind is just deciding if we want to standardize and create infrastructure as a society, or if we want to empower individuals to make the changes they require.

[crate_barre]

Naive question, but aren’t we talking about installing an electrical outlet essentially? Some of these options look like they plug into a wall:

https://www.amazon.com/MUSTART-Portable-Charger-Electric-Cha...

Bare minimum the apartment building can work to install wall outlets in the garage, or very long extension cords.

Video: https://www.amazon.com/vdp/006d5bc8225646d086bb5afa191e52d8?...

That’s not asking for a lot from a building.

[gamblor956]

That’s not asking for a lot from a building.

It's definitely asking for a lot. For my building's parking structure, that would require at least $5 million worth of upgrades to the electrical system, and we're not even the biggest condo building on the block.

[giantg2]

The outlet isn't a big deal. The infrastructure to support it is. You need to pay the supplier for additional supply lines, an electrician for the panel and other customer side infrastructure. That's the expensive part.

[chipsa]

Most people don’t need a supply upgrade, because they can shift most of the charging to night time, and the majority of people don’t use as much power at night as during the day. Unless they have a very small service. But most people have it sized to support a stove, electric dryer and A/C, if they got service relatively recently. And most electric companies will do the service upgrade for cheap if necessary, because they’ll make it back from more electric use.

They do need an electrician to run the new wires to the garage though.

[giantg2]

If we are talking about a SFH charging one car at a time (or slow charging 2), sure.

My comment was more focused on the gas stations, apartments, condos, etc that others have brought up.

[chipsa]

Yeah, apartments and condos are probably going to need supply upgrades... but the normal use case for charging IME is: park, and plug in overnight. With sufficiently smart EVSEs, you should be able to limit the charge rate to not have to worry about exceeding your electrical service, even with 2 cars.

Most gas stations shouldn't have car chargers, because even with fast chargers, who really wants to be spending 30-60 minutes at one? Fast chargers should be at restaurants and other places people will naturally want to be for a bit of time. Only gas stations that should have chargers are really things like truck stops, where they already have some amenities.

[kube-system]

The grandparent comment mentioned a parking garage at a condo, presumably, spaces for dozens of cars.

[kube-system]

Depending on the current electrical system and the number of outlets you’re adding it could consist of a significant upgrade to the electrical infrastructure in the building.

[giantg2]

In the context of charging multiple vehicles simultaneously at gas stations, apartments, etc, it's almost a certainty that the building infrastructure would need to be upgraded. Newer 200 amp SFH can likely charge one car at a time with minimal upgrades.

[djfobbz]

If people can't charge their vehicles at home (inside their garage), I see that as a burden on the city to provide adequate street based charging stations...similar to parking meters they already have.

[bastawhiz]

Why doesn't the city install gas pumps along the streets as well?

Parking meters are not comparable infrastructure. They often run on a small solar cell with almost no maintenance burden. Charging stations require a substantive amount of power and regular maintenance. Installing street chargers essentially requires entirely net new infrastructure.

[giantg2]

"Why doesn't the city install gas pumps along the streets as well?"

Because the process for pumping gas is fundamentally different from charging. If filling up a gas tank took hours, then you likely would see this sort of infrastructure. Also, it doesn't need to be the city directly. They can contract this to a private provider.

[ep103]

Yeah, the city should step in to fill this role. Perhaps they could pass some sort of law requiring that current oil-based infrastructure has to support battery charging as well. Gas stations might be a particularly good target, since they are already geographically optimized for refueling vehicles.

[capableweb]

> Toyota has it right - there are huge issues to be solved before widespread roll out of EV is possible. The charging question is just one of them.

Not sure what Toyota has to do with anything (can't find them mentioned in the article), but I think that problem is a catch-22 problem. No one is gonna want to solve any issues about EV roll out unless people start using EV, but no one is gonna want to use EV unless there is realistic attempts on solving the issues.

[frenchy]

> Not sure what Toyota has to do with anything

They're probably referencing the fact that Toyota has hedged their bets on hydrogen fuel instead of electric. As far as I'm aware though, that hedge has been going poorly for them.

[olivermarks]

https://www.motorious.com/articles/news/toyota-warns-about-r...

[giantg2]

I think they brought up Toyota because they recently stated that EV adoption should not be accelerated.

[chx]

Most old high rises in the West End do not have the spare wattage to install even one charger in the underground parkade much less several. Getting some from BC Hydro is expensive and they really, really don't want to because they don't have much to spare either. It'll be likely 2030 before we get more. https://www.bchydro.com/energy-in-bc/projects/west-end-subst...

Also, the demand grows as climate change hits Vancouver hard -- check out the heat dome last summer. Spending money on an AC was laughable luxury before but now?

[giantg2]

If the bottleneck is energy supply, how are the gas stations expected to source their energy?

[chx]

There are no gas stations left in the West End and only one on the entire downtown peninsula which has been on sale already several times. I was answering about home charging for a non-trivial amount of the population.

The rest of the city is supplied well, it's just the peninsula which doesn't have enough. It is also one of the densest places in Canada.

[giantg2]

So what is the plan for EVs there if the infrastructure can't handle it?

[chx]

That's why you need to have it in gas stations because for in the short term future I can't see downtown having an abundance of chargers.

As I noted, the other substations which are not on the peninsula are fine.

Look: https://www.google.com/maps/search/bc+hydro+substations+in+v... the Dal Grauer Substation is so old it is a heritage building!

[giantg2]

But you just said there are no gas stations left on the peninsula. How are gas stations with a few chargers in other areas going to help when it takes hours to charge?

[b112]

This seems misguided to me.

It costs the city nothing, and is a revenue stream from those which don't comply. Win #1.

It allows tourists, travellers a place to charge, which they know is maintained, and works, and is enroute to somewhere.

There is no downside here, for the city.

[neither_color]

>There is no downside here

The gas station needs to pay a design firm + engineers to submit plans to the city for permitting to construct the new EV charging location, they have to pay the electrical utility to increase its service, they need to pay more for electricity every month, they need to buy commercial car chargers and pay an electrical contractor thousands to install them. The gas station therefore likely has to raise prices on either its gas or its other products and services, hurting locals who can't afford EV cars to the benefit of the better off who likely already have car chargers installed in the garages of their expensive homes. Bear in mind also that they're not guaranteed to make money off the car charging, this is the city deciding their business plans for them. The cost of building a charging station takes away what could've been a car wash, more retail space, a mechanic's garage, etc. The city should be offering tax incentives, not punitive fines IMO.

[giantg2]

"There is no downside here, for the city."

Emphasis mine. Sure. The city could fine every store with parking spaces for not supplying charging infrastructure. We also have to see what those fines do to the businesses. It's possible that many gas stations decide to close or substantially raise their prices to cover the increased costs.

Basically, the city isn't the only stakeholder.

[xboxnolifes]

> There is no downside here, for the city.

There are no immediate downsides. I'm not going to pretend to predict the future in it's entirety, but requiring any business to maintain any sort of additional infrastructure seems like it will lead to additional costs. I'm not saying that as a reason to avoid ever doing it, but let's not pretend it doesn't have consequences. This either means more expensive gas station visits (for at least some people), or it means fewer gas stations exists due to being priced out from the additional costs. Now, how those changes affect the local economy at large is anyone's guess.

[s1artibartfast]

The downside for the city is trampling over businesses and their resident owners.

[elihu]

I agree with that, and would add that gas stations aren't particularly suitable for EV charging. They're often built on small lots and rely on high throughput to serve a lot of customers. EV charging is slower and therefore requires more space for the same level of throughput.

There's nothing inherently wrong with a gas station having one or two charging stations, but if EV charging is in demand then those spots are going to be filled most of the time. Which means that it's not a reliable service for the people who want it; better to go to a larger lot with more spaces. (And this proposal also includes mandates for sites with more than 60 parking stalls to get EV charging, which I think makes more sense.)

There's a natural tendency to want to shoehorn petroleum-based infrastructure into the world of electrically powered vehicles, but it kind of feels like trying to bolt a catalytic converter onto a horse. I think gas stations should just be allowed to die out and be replaced by other kinds of businesses based on what the market demands.

[mrandish]

> This seems misguided to me.

Agreed, and for more reasons than those you mention. This would increase costs of gas on poorer people (who can't afford a shiny new EV) to subsidize more convenient charging for wealthier people (who aren't even buying gas). It's effectively an additional tax on gasoline that gas station owners will pass on to all their customers who do buy gas.

[zeryx]

Most people in Canada don't have a home, they rent - especially in BC.

[arcticbull]

That's straight-up wrong. Home ownership rates in Canada are actually really high, 68.55% so more than 2/3 of Canadians own their own homes.

[edit] In fact Surrey, while not Vancouver proper, comes in at the #4 spot for the highest percentage of millennials who own their homes. [1]

[1] https://edisonfinancial.ca/millennial-home-ownership-canada/

[zeryx]

Condos don't count.. unfortunately. Most condo boards don't support installing electric charging infrastructure.

[throw0101a]

> Most condo boards don't support installing electric charging infrastructure.

Not legal to reject things out of hand in Ontario at least:

* https://www.condoauthorityontario.ca/resources/electric-vehi...

* http://condoadviser.ca/2021/06/ev-charging-stations-condos-m...

Not perfect, but simply saying "no" is not an option. New build has to accommodate EV charging (both condos and 'regular' residential (220V line pre-plumbed)).

[frenchy]

> Most condo boards don't support installing electric charging infrastructure.

If they don't, that's on the owners who vote for and run the strata.

[arcticbull]

Condo boards are made up of the residents who live in their buildings, so they do collectively own their own infrastructure. They will have to move in that direction, but it certainly is possible.

[ehnto]

Some more nuance, is that not every home will have a garage or even off-street parking. So even if you own your apartment, you may still be out of luck for charging where you live.

That issue will only get worse as housing gets denser, so some kind of publicly accessible charging will be necessary. Maybe that means apartment blocks, units and townhouses start putting in outlets near the street, but I can see that getting really tricky. For street parking you have the vandalism aspect, which is kind-of working for corporations who can stomach the cost, but I doubt it would fly for landlords.

[giantg2]

If they rent, where do they park at that residence? That's where it makes sense to charge. How many of the renters without parking have a car?

If it's really true that "Most people in Canada" don't have a home, then do you really think that the 66 gas stations in Vancouver can accommodate all those people?

[ehnto]

On the street, or shared parking lots, or yes indeed, not at all. Try organizing an on-the-sidewalk charging station for your unit block, even if you own your unit, you've got to convince your strata/hoa to plan, consult councils, build and maintain it.

Then who pays for the electricity? At the moment at least, you're pretty likely to be the only one with an EV, so either everyone is paying strata fees to charge your car for you, or you're in some boutique agreement outside the strata and they put in a meter just for you, or you've payed for the whole thing on your own. Forget it entirely if you're renting.

[giantg2]

Yeah, that's why I mentioned public infrastructure as one of the options for on-street charging.

The other reason I raise this, is that it could be more beneficial to fine the landlords or strata rather than gas stations. After all, if the goal is to increase charging infrastructure, there is more potential capacity here than at 66 gas stations and the paradigm for charging at longer duration parking spaces (home, work, restaurants) is more effective than charging at a short stop location (gas sations).

[ryanbrunner]

Even if you own something, there's no guarantee that you have your own private parking space to install EV chargers. Where I live (an old, very dense downtown), some houses don't have a driveway, and most can only accommodate a single car. Street parking is very common for residents. On top of that, apartments aren't guaranteed to have EV chargers installed.

[giantg2]

What if they changed to law to allow residents that install charging infrastructure to have some preference/reservation of the spot they they improved in front of their residence?

Perhaps these needs additional tech. Something like a cable run from the house to the parking spot, enclosed under a grate that can be unlocked by the resident, as well as a lockout switch inside the house. Of course it could be better for the infrastructure to be public or for the city to contract with a private provider.

[ryanbrunner]

Yeah, certainly there could be more creative solutions here. Running power out to the street is a challenging and big job (particularly when there's sidewalks and other city property involved), but I definitely agree that gas stations aren't the most ideal solution, just that "put a charger in your driveway" isn't a universal home run of a solution.

[s0rce]

I've usually parked my car on the street while renting, I just make sure that this is possible in neighborhoods that I've chosen to rent. Because of this I've never purchased an EV.

[jbay808]

> Most people can charge at home for their typical needs

A lot of people in Vancouver can't!

For example they may live in an apartment building whose strata council refuses to install chargers in the garage, or they may live in somebody's basement suite and not have access to a garage at all.

(I'd rather charge my car at a cafe, though.)

[chx]

As a former strata treasurer: believe me, we wanted to. We had the votes, city had a nice incentive. But our building -- and indeed most high rises in the West End built '59-'73 -- simply didn't have enough wattage and when we asked BC Hydro for more the answer was an absolutely staggering amount of money since you needed to dig up the street and the house property to get the cables in. (And be God merciful on you if there are trees to mess with because the city won't be -- it is probably easier to get a license to kill than getting a permit to replace trees in the West End.) And it's the same amount of digging for 50A or 500A so it only makes sense to ask for as much as you can and BC Hydro has little left until the new substation comes online and now it seems that won't be before 2029.

Times like these, you need to consider if you had a spare 50A (we didn't) would you spend that on another drier or an EV charger?

[giantg2]

"For example they may live in an apartment building whose strata council refuses to install chargers in the garage,"

True, but then why fine these gas stations? It would make more sense to fine landlords for not providing charging infrastructure under some circumstances (on request, or above some unit number, or even just free market of renters being willing to pay more for a rental with charging infrastructure).

"or they may live in somebody's basement suite and not have access to a garage at all."

True, I was thinking of the public chargers for this as they are likely street parking.

"I'd rather charge my car at a cafe, though."

I agree.

[mgh2]

Assuming everyone can afford a home...