[yucky]

>Russian original plan folded entirely.

It's funny, I don't recall seeing any pro-Russian sources stating that the goal was to capture all of Ukraine. In fact, they've publicly stated their goals since the beginning, and annexing all of Ukraine was never listed. Where did this idea in the media come from, since it didn't come from Russia..?

[lobocinza]

Because a state-run news site accidentally published a victory article.

"Ukraine has returned to Russia...It will be reorganized, re-established and returned to its natural state as part of the Russian world...[Russia, Belarus and Ukraine will now act] in geopolitical terms as a single whole,"

https://www.newsweek.com/state-run-russian-news-site-acciden...

Also if you take the time to notice what Putin is saying and doing you will realize that denazification = genocide. The goal was not to arrest Hitler's fans but to destroy Ukrainian nationality.

https://snyder.substack.com/p/russias-genocide-handbook

From Wikipedia.

"Genocide is the intentional destruction of a people — usually defined as an ethnic, national, racial, or religious group — in whole or in part."

[yucky]

>denazification = genocide

Interesting take.

[SideburnsOfDoom]

Firstly, the claim that Russia is actually doing actual "denazification" is such obvious rubbish that no sentient informed person should come close to believing it.

What they do is far more informative than what they say. What they say also includes Mr Putin's frankly unhinged speeches calling for more Russian Lebensraum.

Second, the point of such disinformation is not necessarily to make everyone believe this story, but to muddy that waters so much that people are no longer sure where the truth lies, they either fall back to the "well, there must be truth on both sides" or just give up on ever finding out the truth.

Thus, this kind of disinformation does not need to even be self-consistent or even that believable. But it does need to be relentlessly sent out.

[yucky]

The Ukrainian Azov Battalion is very much proudly Nazi in their ideology, and they don't hide it. Where does this defense of them and their Nazi ideology come from? Nobody disputes they are Nazi's and yet we are supposed to defend them because Russia is the aggressor? Or is there another reason?

[SideburnsOfDoom]

Try harder. You haven't brought up this particular odious rubbish whataboutery in a while, as it gets [dead].

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30647861

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30739170

[yucky]

It's interesting that you don't deny The Ukrainian Azov Battalion are Nazi's, nor do you justify why we should side with them.

[mcphage]

> In fact, they've publicly stated their goals since the beginning, and annexing all of Ukraine was never listed.

Well, their publicly stated goal was "this is a training exercise how dare you accuse us of anything", and we all saw how much truth there was to that.

[yucky]

It makes perfect sense not to trust everything Putin says. That doesn't answer the questions though - where did our media get the idea that Russia ever intended on annexing all of Ukraine? They tell us this was a goal, but what is the source of that claim? Russia never made that claim. Only some in the media have, shouldn't we expect sources for claims like that?

[mcphage]

I think the primary source was the presence of the army that invaded Ukraine, and attempted to seize the capital.

[yucky]

..and the central city of Kyiv was the furthest east Russia ever went, which leads us back to the question of where people got the idea that Russia ever intended to annex all of Ukraine.

[mcphage]

…you think the most likely explanation is that the Russians attacked Kyiv because that was the furthest west they wanted? They’d just leave the rest alone?

[yucky]

No, the most obvious answer is that they went there to destroy high value targets to weaken Ukraine militarily, making it far easier to do what they want to do in the Donbass/Crimean land bridge area. Now rather than having to deal with the Ukrainian air force, tank units, air defense etc. those obstacles are mostly gone.

[sidibe]

Well according to the Russian media the west and Lviv particularly was the hotbed of Nazism (back a month ago some distinction was made that that was the particularly bad part of Ukraine, but now it's all teeming with Nazis), so denazification would have to involve the west too. I think it's pretty clear the goal was to replace the government at least, and if they could get another Lukashenko that in itself is almost "annexing"

[yucky]

Well the Azov Battalion was and is in Mariupol (not Lyiv), and they are the vanguard of the Nazi element in Ukraine. As to your point about Putin wanting a more pro-Russian government in Ukraine, of that I have no doubt.

[pseudalopex]

What you replied to said nothing about annexing all of Ukraine. Almost all evidence suggests Russia expected they would capture Kyiv and Ukraine would capitulate quickly.

[yucky]

Except Putin has publicly stated his goals since before the invasion and during, and they've not publicly changed. And at no point was annexing all of Ukraine a stated goal. I only bring it up because I'm curious where it came from.

[mcphage]

> Except Putin has publicly stated his goals since before the invasion and during, and they've not publicly changed.

Sometimes what a person says and a person does don’t agree. In situations like that—you don’t need to believe what they say! You can just accept they lied and move on.