[mcphage]

> In fact, they've publicly stated their goals since the beginning, and annexing all of Ukraine was never listed.

Well, their publicly stated goal was "this is a training exercise how dare you accuse us of anything", and we all saw how much truth there was to that.

[yucky]

It makes perfect sense not to trust everything Putin says. That doesn't answer the questions though - where did our media get the idea that Russia ever intended on annexing all of Ukraine? They tell us this was a goal, but what is the source of that claim? Russia never made that claim. Only some in the media have, shouldn't we expect sources for claims like that?

[mcphage]

I think the primary source was the presence of the army that invaded Ukraine, and attempted to seize the capital.

[yucky]

..and the central city of Kyiv was the furthest east Russia ever went, which leads us back to the question of where people got the idea that Russia ever intended to annex all of Ukraine.

[mcphage]

…you think the most likely explanation is that the Russians attacked Kyiv because that was the furthest west they wanted? They’d just leave the rest alone?

[yucky]

No, the most obvious answer is that they went there to destroy high value targets to weaken Ukraine militarily, making it far easier to do what they want to do in the Donbass/Crimean land bridge area. Now rather than having to deal with the Ukrainian air force, tank units, air defense etc. those obstacles are mostly gone.

[mcphage]

That's not really a great read on the situation, at least according to military historians: https://twitter.com/BretDevereaux/status/1508947030273671177

In another thread, he describes it as:

> So to put it bluntly, if the 'clever plan' was to lose 10,000 KIA to set conditions to walk away with the Donbas, that's a stupid plan. That's winning the negotiation on a $15k car by cleverly offering an opening bid of $55k and throwing in your old car as a sweetener.

[sidibe]

Well according to the Russian media the west and Lviv particularly was the hotbed of Nazism (back a month ago some distinction was made that that was the particularly bad part of Ukraine, but now it's all teeming with Nazis), so denazification would have to involve the west too. I think it's pretty clear the goal was to replace the government at least, and if they could get another Lukashenko that in itself is almost "annexing"

[yucky]

Well the Azov Battalion was and is in Mariupol (not Lyiv), and they are the vanguard of the Nazi element in Ukraine. As to your point about Putin wanting a more pro-Russian government in Ukraine, of that I have no doubt.

[SideburnsOfDoom]

> the Azov Battalion was and is in Mariupol

"the Azov Battalion" hasn't existed since 2015

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion#Current_status

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-russia-war-azov-battali...