[slavoingilizov]

Many conflicting viewpoints here. Sure, there's been less of a push from Russia than everyone expected, but it's not like Ukraine controls the sky either.

Are Ukranians really still flying? If that was the case, the mentioned 40-mile convoy heading to Kiev would have been hit by now, no? Russians driving vehicles bumper to bumper shows VERY strong confidence that they own the sky, so things might not be as rosy for Ukraine as they seem.

[ceejayoz]

> If that was the case, the mentioned 40-mile convoy heading to Kiev would have been hit by now, no?

Not necessarily. That's likely to be a target-rich, but well-defended area. As long as it's not moving - especially given rumors of fuel troubles - there may be better things for the Ukranian air force to tackle, like helicopters moving troops around.

[UltraViolence]

No, this convoy would be an obvious strafing target. I'm disappointed that the Ukrainians didn't even attempt it. Or we haven't heard about it.

[stouset]

Strafing implies—again—flying low over a potentially heavily-defended target. If even a handful of ground troops in that convoy are carrying MANPADs it would be suicide, and that's to say nothing of self-propelled anti-aircraft guns that are almost certainly accompanying the convoy.

Again, there are probably far more urgent targets for the Ukrainian Air Force than a convoy that hasn't moved in days.

[tablespoon]

> No, this convoy would be an obvious strafing target. I'm disappointed that the Ukrainians didn't even attempt it. Or we haven't heard about it.

I wouldn't be surprised if the convoy had the equivalent of a 1000 US Stinger AA missiles or more. It's not with strafing if there's too high a chance the jet would get shot down.

As a layman, I'm guessing the only things worth the risk might be some operation that could potentially trap the convoy (e.g. between two knocked-out bridges).

[xeromal]

We don't know the whole story, but Russia could have air superiority over the convoy.

[tedivm]

They hit the fuel train that was supplying the convoy with a drone strike and released the footage. The convoy has been stalled for days now, both due to fighting and due to supply chain issues (such as having their supply train blow up).

[astrange]

Claiming there's a "the" convoy and Ukraine has either not ever struck it, or has only struck it once, seems to assume a satellite picture you saw from 2 days ago is the only thing that's happening in the country. A lot has gone down since then they're not going to tell you about.

[bombcar]

Isn't the supply train in the south in Crimea and the convoy in the north near Kiev?

[ProjectArcturis]

There would be separate supply lines for each thrust.

[tokai]

Irrelevant on the question of Russian air superiority over Ukraine. The Ukrainian air force is clearly still operating.

[micromacrofoot]

Ukraine really doesn't want war, the odds are stacked against them and without significant outside ground troops they'll be devastated even if Russia is as incompetent as they currently appear.

Killing aggressors is often used as an excuse for the aggressors to be more aggressive and Russia's army is large enough to replace that convoy a few times over without much of a sweat. Violence also helps back the idea that Russia needs to be there to stop the violent nazis that state media has painted Ukrainians to be (goes without saying, this is completely fabricated).

It's also a morale killer; a lot of Russians have Ukrainian relatives. A lot of the captured combatants are very young and seem confused about why they're there (yes, could just be propaganda).

Ukraine just wants them to go home. The Ukrainian people don't really have a conflict with the Russian people.

[HideousKojima]

>Violence also helps back the idea that Russia needs to be there to stop the violent nazis that state media has painted Ukrainians to be (goes without saying, this is completely fabricated).

It definitely isn't "completely fabricated":

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

The real problem is, who gives a shit if a small unit in the Ukrainian National Guard is made up of far right extremists? It's a purely internal matter for the Ukrainians to deal with however they see fit, and provides zero justification for Russia's invasion.

But by lying and claiming it's a lie you're going to make anyone who looks into the truth behind the matter more likely to become sympathetic to the Russian version of events.

[smallerfish]

Could you not imagine the Proud Boys being allowed to serve as a unit if Canada seized Montana and Idaho, and the national guard needed resources? (With the assumption that the US had a GDP equivalent to Ukraine's.)

[darawk]

Keep in mind Ukraine is a very poor country being attacked by a much larger, richer, and more powerful country. This would be more comparable to Mexico deputizing the cartels if the US decided to invade.

[chasd00]

i think you mean the cartels would deputize the Mexican government if the US decided to invade

[TheBigSalad]

Honestly I'd prefer to send them in first.

[dymk]

No, I cannot

[smallerfish]

Sounds like a lack of imagination, honestly. Per your sibling comment Ukraine needs all the resources it can get

[dymk]

For some reason, I feel like assistance in the effort from nazis would actually be a net harm to the cause.

[BitwiseFool]

I can't help but think Putin's guise of "denazifying Ukraine" was a poorly understood attempt to gain some favor with those in Western societies that see themselves as fighting fascism and right-wing extremism.

As a westerner, I've definitely noticed my more left leaning friends agree with actions that seemingly contradict classical liberal ideals (free speech, free association) as long as such actions seem to be in service of fighting fascism and misinformation. Perhaps some propaganda strategists assumed that 'fighting nazis' was an acceptable parallel to how the United States claims it is defending freedom/democracy whenever it intervenes in some other country. It obviously didn't work.

[newby]

> I can't help but think Putin's guise of "denazifying Ukraine" was a poorly understood attempt to gain some favor with those in Western societies that see themselves as fighting fascism and right-wing extremism.

> As a westerner, I've definitely noticed my more left leaning friends agree with actions that seemingly contradict classical liberal ideals (free speech, free association) as long as such actions seem to be in service of fighting fascism...

Nah, this is targeted at Russians. I think that as a westerner you underestimate the power of the myth of Russians saving the world from fascism. This is the very core of their identity. You can find some interesting details here: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1497306746330697738.html

Personal experience: I grew up during cold war in one of east-european satelites of the Soviet union. That myth was probably weaker here than in the Soviet union itself, yet it felt ever-present; kind of representation of the mythical struggle of good versus evil. When me and my friends were playing "soldiers" as kids, we were always Russians shooting at fascists. And I remember loving books for kids where some Russian paratrooper befriends local boy and together fight fascism... This was during the latest stages of the communist regime, when almost everyone here hated communists and especially Russians. The idealized memory of their heroic struggle against fascism was the only positive thing that survived in the minds of people.

Obviously, no mention of Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact etc. in history books.

[CRConrad]

Second time in fifteen minutes I happen to come across you serving up weird apalogetic interpretations of dictators and dictator-wannabes. (First time here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30456634 )

Twice is coincidence...

[astrange]

Russians don't know what Nazis are. They just know some people called Nazis attacked them in WW2, so denazifying = stopping enemies of Russia.

It isn't talking about the Azov battalion or anything; that's an uncalled-for steelmanning because everyone is free associating things they read about in the news.

[c-smile]

Russians know. As do Ukrainians.

My granma told me what was happening in Khmelnik (West Ukraine) at times of German occupation.

50% of the city was Jewish. And almost zero left in first few months. And that was done primarily by locals from UPA - not Germans. You can hide from a German but cannot hide from your neighbor.

UPA and Stepan Bandera[1] is a hero of Ukraine now - it is a street in Kiev named after him. Despite the fact that Poland and Russia condemn him as a war criminal - for massacres of Polish and Jewish civilians.

And now Ukrainian refugees are coming to Poland... That will not be that easy ... Liberal values are quite thin as practice shows.

I am quite surprised that nice Jew guy mr. Zelensky didn't do anything about it. Probably because he is not who rule there.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera

[petre]

Fighting nazis/nazism is a 80 year old commie propaganda meme. They used it to brainwash us before 1990 in my country as well. I think it strikes a chord with most of the former residents of the USSR.

[formerly_proven]

What I'm wondering about here is that this seems to have started out relatively detached from the state in 2014 and became more integrated later on. Most sources and events in the article are from the 2014-2015 period. Perhaps they have been kept more in check as they were integrated?

[micromacrofoot]

the claim that russia needs to invade ukraine to stop nazis is completely fabricated, the claim isn’t “nazis exist”

[HideousKojima]

Please actually read my post, since that's not my claim

[micromacrofoot]

Russia's claim is that they must liberate Ukraine because its government is being run by nazis that are executing Russians. That claim is entirely false. Maybe my fault for saying "Ukrainians" instead of "the Ukrainian government" but that was my point. Anything outside of that is needlessly pedantic and creates no interesting dialogue.

[ceejayoz]

I mean, if Russia wants to deNazify, they can start at home first.

https://twitter.com/Kyruer/status/1370361298135965702

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group

[consp]

> It definitely isn't "completely fabricated":

It would be exactly the same as calling all Americans Nazi's during the reign of Trump. There is no foundation in fact all American's are but there are small groups he as the President supported who were Nazi's. This is a plain lie to serve their propaganda.

[mardifoufs]

No, the azov battalion is much more integrated into the ukrainian army than anything comparable during trump's presidency. This is from the official Ukrainian national guard twitter, where they seem proud of the azov batallion dipping munition in pork lard before fighting Muslim chechens:

https://twitter.com/ng_ukraine/status/1497924614865002497

That does not justify any invasion, but there's also no need to go on the other extreme and turn into azov apologia.

[_pd19]

It'd be more like if the US were fighting a civil war and substantial fighters on the government side were part of neo-Nazi paramilitaries that had swastikas as their flag.

Oh and also if the US government started banning other languages then english.

None of this justifies Russian imperialism, but I think we get too caught up in war and can often brush the crimes of the side we agree with under the rug.

[HideousKojima]

>It would be exactly the same as calling all Americans Nazi's during the reign of Trump.

Were any far-right groups formally integrated into the US military, federal law enforcement, or anything else like that during Trump's presidency? That's the difference here, the Azov battalion was a private militia that was made an actual part of the Ukrainian military.

[drran]

Ukraine has not such thing as private militia. Azov regiment was made by volunteers: football fans. See them there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvzxM_DbQhw .

[formerly_proven]

Hah, football fans and neonazism, name a more iconic duo.

[Dma54rhs]

I'm sure you could make a link if you really wanted (I don't believe it and hate your political party likes to call everyone fascist / racist similarly to Russia. But there were many articles I remember about white power type of people biggest terror threat by FBI, of course half the population who believed everyone's fascist (see, these locals agree with us!). I'm certain radicals often go to military, especially right wing, so there's the military connection. I'm also certain the whole police force was white supremacist organization and fascist (you might use something interesting like drug addict guns running the streets killing civilians without hesitation like Putin). So all in all its up to you interpret the world and how widespread something really is and if it deserves an action or pretext for war. Muellers report revealed GRU was running BLM social media and guns rights activists at the same time.

Sincerely from the bottom of my heart I suggest every American to de-escalate because most certainly its not fun to live in a society when things have to be solved by violence between countrymen and Putin has done cleanical job.

[atlantas]

Right, I'd love to hear a good explanation for why they're not attacking a 40-mile long convoy on a road. At least bomb the front of the convoy, wtf.

That Russia sent in such a rich sitting duck target and it's not being attacked suggests they have air superiority and we're getting bad information.

[dpark]

I can’t decide if the people here in the comments spend too much time watching action movies or too little.

Obviously the first thing that pops to mind when you hear “air superiority” and “40 mile convoy of enemy tanks” is “bomb that convoy to dust”. The second thing that should pop is “ambush”. Losing 5 aircraft to surface to air missiles to take out 5 tanks would be a poor tradeoff.

Doubtless bombing the convoy is something Ukraine has considered. Also doubtless they are aware that the convoy isn’t guaranteed to be a parade of sitting ducks.

[jacquesm]

'why don't they' ... really is the assumption that Ukrainian defense is clueless? I would say they are doing a pretty good job so far.

[atlantas]

No, the assumption is that they are outgunned.

[koonsolo]

There is something weird going on with that convoy. It's not moving forward for some reason (claims of fuel shortages)

Maybe they didn't bomb the convoy, but just the supply, like they did before.

Once those soldiers go searching for food, the Ukrainians can take some extra tanks for their army ;).

[chasd00]

i'm no military tactician but if it's not getting closer and not able to hit you then it's not a threat. they probably have bigger problems than a stalled convoy.

[caeril]

If there's one thing Russia is very good at, it's surface to air defense.

They've screwed so much of this operation thus far, but I bet you that good chunks of that column consist of Tunguskas and Tors, and the Ukrainians know it.

[drran]

I see no Tunguska in remains of convoy: https://www.facebook.com/serega.misura/posts/702155627791475... .

[jacquesm]

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-docum...

Maybe not, but there are definitely those in service, one damaged and abandoned, one disabled and one captured.

[jprd]

"Earlier today, the enemy occupying force in Ukraine mercilessly attacked our peacekeeping force as it peacefully advanced towards Kyiv with humanitarian aid.

President Putin has authorized the use of overwhelming force to evict the occupiers and avenge our fallen servicemen. President-in-Exile <insert expendable criminal> leads the official people's government from Belarus and blah...blah..."

There is nothing at all that has stopped the military from attacking such an obvious target, but it would hurt Ukraine's plea as a victim seeking peace from the RUS citizens and provide truthiness to Putin's internal propaganda.

Better to let this encirclement occur, the thaw hits, RUS armor stuck with harrassed supply lines and the hell of urban combat against a determined populace. Meanwhile, your western flank is feeding advanced weaponry into the remaining UKR units and your economy has imploded.

Take all the corruption, assumptions RUS had, etc. and it all still looks like a scenario from some HS history class to help teach about Caesar or Stalingrad.

[NicoJuicy]

Driving bumper to bumper is literally to stay within their air defense missles moving with it.

It's a sign of weakness, not strength.

[whimsicalism]

I doubt the Ukrainians are still flying much.

[rr808]

That was my thought too. They have the luxury if just sitting there waiting safely for the right time while the capital self implodes. Western press talks a lot about it, meanwhile in the South the war is going badly.

[ProjectArcturis]

Sources? I'm trying to diversify media and would love anything that doesn't filter through a pro- or anti-Russia lens. So far Al Jazeera is the best I've found.

[rurp]

I'll second Al Jazeera. I've been looking at various news sources trying to find unbiased up to date info and they are the best I've found so far. The daily live blogs are great when I have the time to follow them.

[rr808]

https://t.me/s/MedvedevVesti https://t.me/s/epoddubny https://t.me/s/sashakots have propaganda and opinion but some worth reading. You'll have to get browser to auto translate.

[rr808]

https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1498491107902062592 has history too

[astrange]

Well it's not going badly, it's expected that Russia would win because of how much bigger they are. It's more that it's going badly for Russia in the north and expectedly in the south.

Of course, being able to capture land doesn't mean they can occupy it.