[micromacrofoot]

Ukraine really doesn't want war, the odds are stacked against them and without significant outside ground troops they'll be devastated even if Russia is as incompetent as they currently appear.

Killing aggressors is often used as an excuse for the aggressors to be more aggressive and Russia's army is large enough to replace that convoy a few times over without much of a sweat. Violence also helps back the idea that Russia needs to be there to stop the violent nazis that state media has painted Ukrainians to be (goes without saying, this is completely fabricated).

It's also a morale killer; a lot of Russians have Ukrainian relatives. A lot of the captured combatants are very young and seem confused about why they're there (yes, could just be propaganda).

Ukraine just wants them to go home. The Ukrainian people don't really have a conflict with the Russian people.

[HideousKojima]

>Violence also helps back the idea that Russia needs to be there to stop the violent nazis that state media has painted Ukrainians to be (goes without saying, this is completely fabricated).

It definitely isn't "completely fabricated":

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

The real problem is, who gives a shit if a small unit in the Ukrainian National Guard is made up of far right extremists? It's a purely internal matter for the Ukrainians to deal with however they see fit, and provides zero justification for Russia's invasion.

But by lying and claiming it's a lie you're going to make anyone who looks into the truth behind the matter more likely to become sympathetic to the Russian version of events.

[smallerfish]

Could you not imagine the Proud Boys being allowed to serve as a unit if Canada seized Montana and Idaho, and the national guard needed resources? (With the assumption that the US had a GDP equivalent to Ukraine's.)

[darawk]

Keep in mind Ukraine is a very poor country being attacked by a much larger, richer, and more powerful country. This would be more comparable to Mexico deputizing the cartels if the US decided to invade.

[chasd00]

i think you mean the cartels would deputize the Mexican government if the US decided to invade

[TheBigSalad]

Honestly I'd prefer to send them in first.

[dymk]

No, I cannot

[smallerfish]

Sounds like a lack of imagination, honestly. Per your sibling comment Ukraine needs all the resources it can get

[dymk]

For some reason, I feel like assistance in the effort from nazis would actually be a net harm to the cause.

[smallerfish]

If you have a limited headcount, a country invading you, and a violent bunch of nationalists who want to fight the invaders, you're going to turn them down?

Also, consider: https://www.reuters.com/world/us/pentagon-stops-short-bannin...

And: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/capitol-riot-january-6-military...

[BitwiseFool]

I can't help but think Putin's guise of "denazifying Ukraine" was a poorly understood attempt to gain some favor with those in Western societies that see themselves as fighting fascism and right-wing extremism.

As a westerner, I've definitely noticed my more left leaning friends agree with actions that seemingly contradict classical liberal ideals (free speech, free association) as long as such actions seem to be in service of fighting fascism and misinformation. Perhaps some propaganda strategists assumed that 'fighting nazis' was an acceptable parallel to how the United States claims it is defending freedom/democracy whenever it intervenes in some other country. It obviously didn't work.

[newby]

> I can't help but think Putin's guise of "denazifying Ukraine" was a poorly understood attempt to gain some favor with those in Western societies that see themselves as fighting fascism and right-wing extremism.

> As a westerner, I've definitely noticed my more left leaning friends agree with actions that seemingly contradict classical liberal ideals (free speech, free association) as long as such actions seem to be in service of fighting fascism...

Nah, this is targeted at Russians. I think that as a westerner you underestimate the power of the myth of Russians saving the world from fascism. This is the very core of their identity. You can find some interesting details here: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1497306746330697738.html

Personal experience: I grew up during cold war in one of east-european satelites of the Soviet union. That myth was probably weaker here than in the Soviet union itself, yet it felt ever-present; kind of representation of the mythical struggle of good versus evil. When me and my friends were playing "soldiers" as kids, we were always Russians shooting at fascists. And I remember loving books for kids where some Russian paratrooper befriends local boy and together fight fascism... This was during the latest stages of the communist regime, when almost everyone here hated communists and especially Russians. The idealized memory of their heroic struggle against fascism was the only positive thing that survived in the minds of people.

Obviously, no mention of Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact etc. in history books.

[CRConrad]

Second time in fifteen minutes I happen to come across you serving up weird apalogetic interpretations of dictators and dictator-wannabes. (First time here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30456634 )

Twice is coincidence...

[astrange]

Russians don't know what Nazis are. They just know some people called Nazis attacked them in WW2, so denazifying = stopping enemies of Russia.

It isn't talking about the Azov battalion or anything; that's an uncalled-for steelmanning because everyone is free associating things they read about in the news.

[c-smile]

Russians know. As do Ukrainians.

My granma told me what was happening in Khmelnik (West Ukraine) at times of German occupation.

50% of the city was Jewish. And almost zero left in first few months. And that was done primarily by locals from UPA - not Germans. You can hide from a German but cannot hide from your neighbor.

UPA and Stepan Bandera[1] is a hero of Ukraine now - it is a street in Kiev named after him. Despite the fact that Poland and Russia condemn him as a war criminal - for massacres of Polish and Jewish civilians.

And now Ukrainian refugees are coming to Poland... That will not be that easy ... Liberal values are quite thin as practice shows.

I am quite surprised that nice Jew guy mr. Zelensky didn't do anything about it. Probably because he is not who rule there.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera

[petre]

Fighting nazis/nazism is a 80 year old commie propaganda meme. They used it to brainwash us before 1990 in my country as well. I think it strikes a chord with most of the former residents of the USSR.

[formerly_proven]

What I'm wondering about here is that this seems to have started out relatively detached from the state in 2014 and became more integrated later on. Most sources and events in the article are from the 2014-2015 period. Perhaps they have been kept more in check as they were integrated?

[micromacrofoot]

the claim that russia needs to invade ukraine to stop nazis is completely fabricated, the claim isn’t “nazis exist”

[HideousKojima]

Please actually read my post, since that's not my claim

[micromacrofoot]

Russia's claim is that they must liberate Ukraine because its government is being run by nazis that are executing Russians. That claim is entirely false. Maybe my fault for saying "Ukrainians" instead of "the Ukrainian government" but that was my point. Anything outside of that is needlessly pedantic and creates no interesting dialogue.

[ceejayoz]

I mean, if Russia wants to deNazify, they can start at home first.

https://twitter.com/Kyruer/status/1370361298135965702

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group

[consp]

> It definitely isn't "completely fabricated":

It would be exactly the same as calling all Americans Nazi's during the reign of Trump. There is no foundation in fact all American's are but there are small groups he as the President supported who were Nazi's. This is a plain lie to serve their propaganda.

[mardifoufs]

No, the azov battalion is much more integrated into the ukrainian army than anything comparable during trump's presidency. This is from the official Ukrainian national guard twitter, where they seem proud of the azov batallion dipping munition in pork lard before fighting Muslim chechens:

https://twitter.com/ng_ukraine/status/1497924614865002497

That does not justify any invasion, but there's also no need to go on the other extreme and turn into azov apologia.

[_pd19]

It'd be more like if the US were fighting a civil war and substantial fighters on the government side were part of neo-Nazi paramilitaries that had swastikas as their flag.

Oh and also if the US government started banning other languages then english.

None of this justifies Russian imperialism, but I think we get too caught up in war and can often brush the crimes of the side we agree with under the rug.

[HideousKojima]

>It would be exactly the same as calling all Americans Nazi's during the reign of Trump.

Were any far-right groups formally integrated into the US military, federal law enforcement, or anything else like that during Trump's presidency? That's the difference here, the Azov battalion was a private militia that was made an actual part of the Ukrainian military.

[drran]

Ukraine has not such thing as private militia. Azov regiment was made by volunteers: football fans. See them there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvzxM_DbQhw .

[formerly_proven]

Hah, football fans and neonazism, name a more iconic duo.

[drran]

Yeah, they are holding «Putin - khujlo!»[0] banner. They are definitely anti-Russian. All anti-Russians are Nazi by Russian definition.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putin_khuylo!

[Dma54rhs]

I'm sure you could make a link if you really wanted (I don't believe it and hate your political party likes to call everyone fascist / racist similarly to Russia. But there were many articles I remember about white power type of people biggest terror threat by FBI, of course half the population who believed everyone's fascist (see, these locals agree with us!). I'm certain radicals often go to military, especially right wing, so there's the military connection. I'm also certain the whole police force was white supremacist organization and fascist (you might use something interesting like drug addict guns running the streets killing civilians without hesitation like Putin). So all in all its up to you interpret the world and how widespread something really is and if it deserves an action or pretext for war. Muellers report revealed GRU was running BLM social media and guns rights activists at the same time.

Sincerely from the bottom of my heart I suggest every American to de-escalate because most certainly its not fun to live in a society when things have to be solved by violence between countrymen and Putin has done cleanical job.