[wetbrain]

I think part of it is the cynicism that develops from bad clients. Some people don't understand that the designer is a professional. Designers just draw all day, and love what they do, so why would I pay big bucks for a website?

After all, my nephew does computers and I can have him make a website for cheap.

There's also the "Of course we want you to have creative control. We just want to be able to tell you how it looks, what colors to use, and what the tone is."

So, I'm not surprised with the responses here. It's the same one I'd have if someone tells me they want to make the next Facebook, only better. Compensation? I'll give a share when it gets big. Details? No, it's a secret...

[HeyLaughingBoy]

That's understandable to a certain extent, but there is no need for anyone to be rude about it. Someone wants a Facebook clone for $500? Simply respond "it's a huge amount of work and I won't be able to do it for that." If they press, explain why.

It's one thing to be cynical; it's something else entirely to show that cynicism to a potential client.

Hell, this isn't limited to the tech world: my wife trains horses and gives lessons and she has the same problem with clients making snarky comments and dumb assumptions. If she wants to keep getting business she has to swallow her irritation and answer politely and informatively.

[dotBen]

If they press, explain why.

No, as a business person you just walk away. They're clearly not a prospect (ie, in the market to buy your services) because they've indicated a budget that is degrees of magnitude to yours.

One of the wonderful traits of being a geek is the desire to explain and the desire to engage in debate. Digg/Reddit/HN are built on it. An important trait of a successful business person is to zero in on potential customers and cut losses quickly on leads that are going no-where.

Your time is money - which is also why many successful startup folks drift out of HN and other communities once they become successful entrepreneurs.

The same traits can also impact on client work once you get into the project. If you're a geek + business person, these are important skills to learn.

[HeyLaughingBoy]

Um, no!

Someone isn't disqualified as a potential customer simply because they don't know how much something costs or assume it costs X when it costs 10X.

A good customer understands value. That means that if they thought something costs $500 but it really will cost $10k, they'll be able to identify if it's worth $10k to them, or instead find out what they can get for the $2k that they can actually afford.

Just saying "no, I can't help you" and walking away isn't doing yourself any favors.

[eric-hu]

What you said reminds me of something I read from edw512's book ( http://edweissman.com/53640595 )

> Buyers of software products, like small children, hear one word more than any other: "no". "No, it can't be done." "No we don't do that." "No, if you did that it would screw up everything else." "No, that's stupid" It doesn't matter if you're right, all that matters is that you're just another person saying "no".

> You differentiate yourself from others by giving the exact same answer, but with the word "yes" instead of "no".

> "Yes, in order to do that, we'd also want to look at..."

...

> As I've told my customers many times, "The answer is always 'Yes'. You may not want to do it once you understand what it will take, but the answer is still 'yes'."

[wetbrain]

> Someone wants a Facebook clone for $500? Simply respond "it's a huge amount of work and I won't be able to do it for that." If they press, explain why.

>Just saying "no, I can't help you" and walking away isn't doing yourself any favors.

You're right. But it's a grey area. There are some real crazies/idiots out there, and picking up a delinquent client is parasitic. If you work a large project, and the client pulls some bullshit to avoid payment, you may need to take them to court. This takes time you could be productive on other projects. A client who signs off on a design, and then complains that it's not what they want, will extend project. Too much of "could you make the yellow more yellow?" "I want people to smell cinnamon and peppermint." results in a poor finished product due to both frustration and a lack of communication.

Just dropping a client has it's own difficulties, and may not be possible depending on the agreement.

"I'll pay you $500 for a large project" is one indicator that could be a difficult client. Of course, it's not a truth, but I feel a good defensive game goes a long way.

It's sampling bias, but http://clientsfromhell.net and http://clientcopia.com/ are entertaining yet frustrating sites to see some of the worst of it. Let's add to the cynicism!

And a decent top ten list. These guys are more common than you'd believe. http://freelancefolder.com/bad-clients-and-how-to-avoid-them...

[dotBen]

So I work in a niche consulting area (helping companies build out developer platforms). I like to earn the most money I can, so I tend to only work with public companies, large corporations, etc because they can afford to pay the most.

Startups approach me all the time, given that I'm quite well connected in the startup scene from my other activities here in SF. But they can't afford to pay me what BigCorps will pay me. There's no point in me telling them the value I can provide and doing the dance because the bottom line is they usually don't have the kind of funding to make it feasible.

And for me, there isn't the equivalent of "well this is what I can do for $500" - I charge by the day and you either pay my rate or you don't. Fortunately I have enough business that will.

[nobleach]

I came here to say basically the EXACT same thing... even including the "my nephew can make websites" remark.

My method is to try to figure that out VERY early in my discussions with a potential client, and then quote them a "scare off price" whereby they'll likely say no, but IF they say yes, the extra money will make it worthwhile as I KNOW they'll be asking for tons of changes. (Can't you just open Dreamweaver and change the colors and pictures???)

I'm not advocating being difficult. I simply think if we'd size up our client BEFORE deciding "we need the money", there'd be a LOT less horror stories.

[mattm]

The best advice I have received about pricing:

Price your service so that you would not regret it either way.

Before giving a price I usually think of how I will feel if I don't get the job and how I will feel if I get it. If I would be comfortable with both situations, then I know it is the right price regardless of what happens.

In line with this, I have given higher rates to "difficult" people I have worked with before that have asked me to do work for them again. I didn't get those jobs (usually I don't even get a response) but I was happy about it. If the work and person seems interesting, I may quote a lower rate.

[wetbrain]

Yeah, I hate "my nephew can make websites". I don't doubt that a high school student could put together a full website, with a store front or whatever else. But I'd be willing to bet it's not the most secure.

I'm sure there's something like this, but there should be a kind of Angie's list for clients to blacklist the delinquent ones. If not I'm making one.

EDIT: There's always the better business bureau, but it's not as complete.

[jtheory]

The "my nephew can make websites" comment is not necessarily what people seem to think it is.

After all, this is someone who has gone to the trouble of getting in touch with a professional and asking questions. They aren't asking their nephew to do it.

They know it's going to be more expensive, but they didn't realize HOW MUCH more expensive, and that comment is simply part of how they learn why that's the case.

They generally honestly don't understand why it's so expensive -- because they don't yet understand what they're buying (it's non-obvious!) -- so the best route is to keep the tone pleasant ("ha! yup, I get that question a lot") and educate them in a friendly way.

The end result may be that they decide they won't want a professional website -- that's fine. Part of the discussion should be how likely it is that the site will earn them back more than they're paying for it. I have a neighbor that wanted to hire me to build a website for her small-scale manufacturing business, and through our discussions we basically figured out that it wasn't going to be a good investment for her right now. That was a win-win situation, in my book.

[wetbrain]

I'd call that a win-win as well.

I do take the same approach and try to explain why it's more expensive, they tend to use the 'nephew' excuse to haggle down by a significant amount (A couple hundred for a medium sized site, think school/PTA/church, tree depth > 2, 10+ pages). But my problem is finding a resolution. (This is a short version, I'm usually more friendly about it)

Client: I know someone who will do it for free. You should therefore do it for cheap.

Dev: This is a large project. (Explain expense).

Client: Then I'll just use my free resource.

Dev: Do that.

Client: But I want you to do it.

Dev: Well, this is a large project. (Explain expense).

Rinse and repeat...

There's a gap with some of them that I have trouble explaining. I'm not in competition with whoever you know. Just because they can do it for free doesn't change what I'll charge, which is pretty reasonable and on the low side. I'll hear from other, actual freelancers (I' a student, so I'm part-time) about the same client calling around and getting the same response. Anecdotally, it takes 4-5 conversations for them to understand that the rate is between $1000 and $7000 depending how large/dynamic it needs to be. Whoever the last person is get the job, or makes a referral.