[newaccount74]

I wonder why ADHD gets singled out so much. If I look at the suggestions that would help people with ADHD, then I see suggestions that would help lots of people. Eg. not being reprimanded for being late when it has no consequences would help everyone. Good calendar software also helps everyone.

There are lots of people who are struggling with the demands of the workplace -- in fact, I'm not sure I know anyone who doesn't struggle with something.

I wonder why employers need a "Neurodiversity program" to make their workplaces less toxic.

Maybe I'm missing something, but are there any specific affordances for Neurodiverse people that wouldn't also help everyone else?

[galoisgirl]

> Good calendar software also helps everyone.

Tell a neurotypical to use a calendar, and they'll just do it.

Tell someone with ADHD to use a calendar, and they'll spend 4 hours shopping for the perfect one, then forget to check it, forget to put things in it, forget to carry it with them etc. You'll say "why can't you just keep a stupid calendar" and they'll say "the calendar doesn't work".

"Use a calendar" is a piece of advice that works for neurotypicals, but not for people with ADHD.

Conversely, "have a fidget toy for every single conversation you have with anyone ever" will probably not help a neurotypical person much, yet that's something I'd advise to anyone with ADHD. You guys also probably don't need a physical list of things to do for fun, because you have brains good enough to remember. Ask me what I like to do in my spare time and I'll be like "hmmmm what even is time?".

I find Nir Eyal has tons of great advice that benefits both camps.

[throwaway6532]

Yes. In my case I only learned to use a calendar at the ripe old age of 33 and even then I can now only sometimes remember to use it.

[tailspin2019]

> I'm not sure I know anyone who doesn't struggle with something.

It's always a matter of degree. It's completely true that to be human, is to struggle. Life is a struggle. Most people get sad at times in their lives, many people get depressed too. Many people are disorganised. And very many people, more than ever, experience trouble focussing and concentrating at times.

But when that struggle becomes a defining and pervasive feature of your life, to the point that it's unshakable. Perhaps it affects your relationships. Maybe makes it difficult to hold down a job... That's where you start to fall under the diagnostic criteria for a long-term "condition" as opposed to just the common condition that we all share of simply being human.

And that's where workplace support of this kind may go from useful to necessary. From "makes my job easier" to "makes it possible for me to hold a job at all".

I think it's important to recognise the struggle that everyone has, as part of being human, but it's important not to overlook the significant additional struggle that people with a diagnosed condition or "neurodiversity" experience on top of this.

[lolinder]

> If I look at the suggestions that would help people with ADHD, then I see suggestions that would help lots of people.

This is why we always emphasize that accessibility is for everyone, not just people with disabilities. The primary difference is that those with formal disabilities spend a much greater percentage of their time hurt by inaccessibility.

The modern workplace isn't very human-friendly, but neurotypical people can and do work around the problems, so businesses don't adjust. Focusing on ADHD gives businesses a concrete example of people they'd like to retain who truly can't be productive in the current environment, so it's more likely to trigger actual change.

[anonymoushn]

At an exit interview with my favorite employer so far, the HR person asked "What would you change about $company?" and I asked for walls. Walls are especially great for ADHD people compared to open-plan offices in which one must debug nginx internals while listening to sales-related conversations, but the literature suggests that the benefits of walls accrue to everyone.

[ekanes]

You’re right, but this is always the way. Accommodating people with differing needs/sensitivities usually helps everyone. non-fluorescent lighting, reduced noise, etc. The majority of people are affected by something but don’t realize it. If you fix it for more sensitive people you fix it for everyone.

[novok]

ADHD people:

- loose track of things more than the typical person

- get distracted by new things more than the average person

- have significantly higher openness to experience

- tend to forget more things

- are more impulsive

So it's basically having an extra management structure or labor that is willing to put in extra time to mitigate the issue that come up with this, and to harness the benefits of them too.

[Ancapistani]

> an extra management structure

Not necessarily - it could be as simple as a change to the existing structure that benefits everyone to some degree (or at least doesn’t harm others).

[novok]

If the change of the management structure requires more active hours of management labor, for everyone or for people with ADHD, it's still more total work and labor which costs more money and is limited by hiring constraints.

[Ancapistani]

I agree with you, but only if the additional burden on management is not offset by increased productivity of every employee.

I don’t know to what degree - or if - that would be the case, but I strongly suspect it would be.

[JohnBooty]

You make a lot of great points.

I totally agree: the things that help neurodiverse folks (whether we're talking about tangible affordances, or just a general sense of inclusion and empathy) are generally also the things that would help literally anybody.

    If I look at the suggestions that would help people 
    with ADHD, then I see suggestions that would help 
    lots of people

One thing to consider is that affordances that are helpful for everybody may be absolutely essential for neurodiverse folks.

Think of physical differences: a wheelchair ramp can be useful for lots of people, but for some people it's a real necessity.

    I wonder why employers need a "Neurodiversity program" 
    to make their workplaces less toxic.

I'm not sure it's reasonable, or even humanly possible, for employers to intuitively know all the ways they might help every possible employee perform their best.

So it's the kind of thing you want to formalize a bit. Because, I mean, what is a "program?" It's just a formal recognition that this is an ongoing effort, not a one-time thing.

[krono]

ADHD brains are physically incapable of doing these things without assistance on a neurological/biochemical level.

It's not much different to elevators being pretty convenient for everyone, but an absolute necessity to the wheelchair-bound.

Edit: better fitting analogy.

[mijoharas]

> ADHD brains are physically incapable of doing these things without assistance on a neurological/biochemical level.

I realise the point that you're making is that ADHD is a biological condition, and it's likely you're using your wording for emphasis, but I think "physically incapable" is a bit strong.

Both my sister and I have ADHD, I don't take methylphenidate (ritalin) while she does. I'm still capable of being on time and working on things I find boring (though the latter is definitely a real struggle, so I try and make sure I work on interesting things which helps my productivity to no end). My sister, however, says that she really wouldn't be able to cope in a work environment without the meds.

One thing I'd like to point out, that is utterly unrelated to anything you're saying, is that people with ADHD can be hugely productive on things that they find interesting.

[dgellow]

> One thing I'd like to point out, that is utterly unrelated to anything you're saying, is that people with ADHD can be hugely productive on things that they find interesting.

Just sharing some personal thoughts: my main issue is not to be productive, but the lack of control over what I can be productive at. It's the most frustrating feeling ever. You get a new cool idea and can spend 2 weeks being the most productive person ever working on it. But you know it doesn't matter and you don't really care. You can see yourself being obsessed about it but also that you did not decide to find this specific thing motivating/interesting. Then you struggle for months to do very basic stuff you actually want to be productive at.

[mijoharas]

I definitely relate to that as well. One thing to note is that that particular aspect is one that I think the meds can help a fair bit with I think.

Obviously I don't know whether you're already on them or not, but if not, maybe try them?

(Obvious caveats of me having no idea about your own situation apply).

[dgellow]

Thanks, that’s good to know.

I’m in a large city in Germany where access to medication is very strict, so we will see.

I’m in the process of being diagnosed formally since a while now. Since the pandemics psychiatrists are overbooked which results in 6+ months between appointments, so everything is very, very slow :)

[krono]

Yes, obviously there is some nuance that I left out.

There's a severity spectrum (without meds I'm guaranteed to be late and/or distracted by the most random things), and the ability to concentrate is very hard to predict or control - not something that can be relied on for most.

[ericraio]

I agree with you on this. For me personally, I find that my ADHD fuels my obsession where I am extremely persistent and every new “shiny object” is related to the interesting topic I am working on. Like new nodes to add on a mind map.

[galoisgirl]

> ADHD brains are physically incapable of doing these things without assistance on a neurological/biochemical level.

How do you think people with ADHD live in countries where adult ADHD is not known? It's hard, but we absolutely can.

[chownie]

Some can, a substantial number end up in prison or homeless. Note that this is also the case for countries where ADHD is measured.

[vkk8]

ADHD isn't a discrete trait, it simply means that "you are in the lower x percentile of the population in the ability to concentrate". Even people whose concentration skills are close to the mean of the population can feel like they "have ADHD" and be diagnosed with one if they eg. work a job that requires more than average amounts of concentration which they don't have. For a good layman's discussion on this, see: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/12/28/adderall-risks-much-mo... (for people who are not familiar with SSC, the writer is a psychiatrist by profession so he should know this stuff).

[alasdair_]

> ADHD isn't a discrete trait, it simply means that "you are in the lower x percentile of the population in the ability to concentrate".

This is an oversimplification to the point of being misleading.

Scott links to several sources to support his claims and most of them are quite clear that ADHD is a whole bunch of symptoms, a lack of concentration being just one of them. For example:

“DSM-IV field trials used a C-GAS score of ≤60 (which implies impairment requiring specific treatment) and determined that five ADHD symptoms were required to be present to reach this cut-off. To avoid false positives the number was increased to six or more symptoms of inattention or hyperactivity/impulsivity.‘

As an example, some people with ADHD have symptoms where their biggest detrimental issue is hyperfocus - their problem is literally that they concentrate too much rather than too little. Simplifying the condition as “ lower x percentile of the population in the ability to concentrate" discounts these people, as it does the people whose principal problem is hyperactivity or other aspects.

[wnkrshm]

I just want to add to that, that hyperfocus isn't directed, it just happens. That's why it can mess up the lives of people with the issue - directing attention to a problem that is currently important, from a rational perspective, is almost impossible.

[anonymoushn]

I think this is a problem with GP's comment, not with the original SSC article. It really does seem like ADHD is just "lowest x percent of the population by conscientiousness" which isn't exactly what GP wrote, and a bunch of people replied to GP explaining the differences between conscientiousness and what he wrote.

[pseudalopex]

No. ADHD criteria and low conscientiousness behaviors overlap. Conscientiousness tests combine effort and outcomes usually. Many ADHD criteria are about difficulty.

[anonymoushn]

I don't understand. Is "difficulty" some axis that's independent of "effort" and "outcomes"? Is conscientiousness defined to be the result a person achieves on a particular test, and can you provide a link to that test?

Do you often leave comments like "No. PCR-covid and pulse-oximiter-covid are different diseases. One of them involves having virus genomes in your body and the other one involves having low blood oxygen?"

[seba_dos1]

What if I told you that ADHD actually makes it likely for you to concentrate much more on something that engages you than a typical person, to the point that you almost forget about eating, sleeping or going to the toilet? Having a tendency to hyperfocus is a pretty common ADHD trait.

It's really not that simple. Squishing it all down to "ability to concentrate" isn't just an oversimplification; it misses the point entirely. Having difficulties with concentration on non-engaging tasks is just one of the possible symptoms.

[throwaway6532]

Exactly. People fundamentally misunderstand it in this very common way and it's such a shame. It's really the difficult in ability to regulate attention which includes both keeping your attention on something (i.e concentration) and your ability to take your attention off something and shift it to something else (i.e hyperfocus).

[krono]

I do not fundamentally misunderstand this. That would be weird considering my own ADHD combined type diagnosis in the severe range.

Just saying.

[krono]

Hah wrote that on mobile, looks like it's missing a part.

ADHD Is on a spectrum, which is what I wish people would understand. My diagnosis is in the severe range, and I'm 100% useless without medication. Unable to concentrate or be on time even if my life depended on it.

[krono]

Ah so I just have to concentrate harder!

Geez why didn't anyone just tell me this, would have been a lot easier

[dgellow]

But have you tried creating a list?! /s

[mobiuscog]

Which list software/paper/pen should I use ?

(Semi-serious question even though /s because topic)

[dgellow]

A physical journal, using the bullet journal method is what works for me. It is hard to stick to it the first few months and require a good amount of effort but that's what I've been the most persistent with.

The book "The bullet journal method" from Ryder Carroll was a good introduction to understand how the method works (try to ignore the preachy tone): https://bulletjournal.com/pages/book.

I now have >6 months of journaling, with only a few missing weeks and I can say it has been very helpful to organize my time and mind.

Regarding the type of notebook or pen, it really does not matter, you just need something you enjoy using. I personally use Faber-Castell pens I got for a few cents each (in €) because I like their feeling in my hand, and an idena notebook because they have a lot of pages and I already had a few of them around my house (~6€ each).

[throwaway6532]

>Even people whose concentration skills are close to the mean of the population can feel like they "have ADHD" and be diagnosed with one if they eg. work a job that requires more than average amounts of concentration which they don't have

It's a requirement for diagnosis that it affects multiple domains of your life and not limited to just a single domain, so no.

[karpierz]

I think this is generally true, but it's a matter of magnitude. For example, a public transit program helps everyone in the neighbourhood, but especially helps those who can't afford to drive. So when someone says "hey, we should help low-income people by building a subway", they're not saying that it'll only help low-income folks, but that it'll especially help low income folks.

The point of the "neurodiversity program" is to focus on avoidable practices which heavily impact certain groups of people. Those practices might also impact other people, but not to such a debilitating extent.