[bjeds]

I'm noticing a sad trend recently.

* This article is one instance.

* Within the past 24 hours there was a Hacker News submission "Self-improvement is embracing your messy, imperfect life" ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29928873 )

* Combine this with the sudden appearance of subreddit "Antiwork".

Are people depressed or anxious because of covid, or what's wrong?

Trying to be a better person every day, in combination with the wonder of creativity and building, is what made the internet interesting in the early days. Who are these people who are turning communities into sad opposites of these values?

[ChildOfChaos]

You are seeing this a lot everywhere.

I think people are just burnt out and maybe lockdowns/covid has made them realise this more as they are unable to do the things that used to put some much time into.

Life cannot and should not be just about doing work, being productive, attaining goals, being useful etc. I think the problem is with a standard job and a normal adult life, we have little time for anything else and life just seems like an endless stream of things we need to do in order to be worthwhile or to reach any level of competency.

Like with most things though, there is a balance. It's good to work on yourself, make improvements, obtain goals etc, it's not so good if your entire life just becomes this and balance is exceptionally hard with the lack of time and energy that exists compared to what is required to do all of this.

[sergiotapia]

What's wrong is wealth inequality. It all rolls downhill from that. Minimum wage is not enough to make ends meet and rent + food is through the roof. That's what is wrong. Imagine being scheduled to work 39 hours on purpose to avoid being full-time and getting benefits. That's just one problem in a laundry list of problems.

An entire generation was sold a dream and now people are waking up.

[softsound]

Used to be scheduled 38 hours a week as a part timer but at least I sometimes got overtime pay for special occasions. I'm not sure if an entire generation was sold a dream, a lot didn't dream to begin with. As someone at the edge of being of being a millennial nearly gen z. I think a lot of folks never expected anything good per say, but perhaps many starting poorer made us have much worse mental health to begin with. I'm in a good spot now and worked into STEM with little education but I know many who will likely never get better. There is a lot of problems with the workforce that lower end people have so little power over. Requiring more of companies is a good place to start.

[altvali]

The problem you describe is poverty, not wealth inequality. While they are correlated, they are not the same. Some countries have less poverty and more inequality than others.

[WalterBright]

The only way to make wealth inequality go away is to make everyone poor. (This has happened in every society that tried it.)

[nwatson]

Lowering "effective" wealth inequality might help, and probably happens to some degree. Distract the rich and suck their money into pissing contests over status goods whose commerce does not infringe on the supply/demand of goods for people down the ladder. The problem comes when that wealth sets its eyes on acquiring or monopolizing assets and pushing up prices of real estate and rents, for example.

I grew up feeling it should be a sin to waste money on fancy cars or fancy vacations. I now think we need more abstract art, NFTs, and something real compelling and scarce in the metaverse to absorb all that money.

Just some ill-formed thoughts with plenty of holes.

[llimos]

For me it's the sense that the world is rapidly heading out of control, with big companies and governments everywhere performing a mass stitch-up, and if you haven't already made it you're probably not going to. And they're driven by greed alone, and those trying to build a better world are losing. And it's got a lot worse since covid started.

[WJW]

That subreddit has existed for years though? Accepting your life for what it is goes back millennia in some religions, so that is not a new trend either. Greek and Roman philosophy is absolutely filled with people stating that striving for political or monetary gain is a fools' errand, so that is not something new either.

Perhaps this is merely a case of the Baader Meinhoff phenomenon and you suddenly notice it more than earlier?

[bandana]

According to https://subredditstats.com/r/antiwork the subreddit was almost empty 2 years ago, and the subscriber count only started going in the past few months.

[DarylZero]

Yeah because of the labor bargaining position, the great resignation, etc., it's their moment.

[WJW]

Hmm interesting. Maybe it's my own bias as well, embraced my talent for uselessness long ago haha.

[AussieWog93]

To be fair, r/antiwork shares a lot of content with r/latestagecapitalism, which was growing steadily long before the pandemic: https://subredditstats.com/r/latestagecapitalism

[Zababa]

I don't know about the rest of the world, but I know that these last two years have been rough for me. It's not something I feel every day, but when I pause and look back, I see that I'm in a worse shape than two years ago. I still derive most of my pleasure from helping people close to me, this hasn't changed. But I have a hard time finding pride, pleasure or something like that in my day to day work. Maybe it's the disconnect between me and the users (I work for a relatively large SAAS company), maybe it's me losing empathy for strangers due to isolation, I don't know.

[Apocryphon]

Physically isolated people ruminate.

This is also selection bias. Yesterday there was immense thread about quitting jobs- the majority of people were leaving for other jobs, not to retire.

[mattlutze]

I never felt that the Internet in the 90's was about turning yourself into a meat robot. Tech businesses want that from their staff and had been slowly working toward it, but the last 2 years feel like that slow creep was accelerated and a lot of people have had enough.

For a long time we watched businesses get leaner, trying to use frameworks and automation so that the same staff could manage 2x, 5x 10x, 100x the amount of resources. The pandemic saw hiring freezes, wage freezes, from which businesses are still recovering. Market analysis is showing that most non-hospitality sectors have recovered though, which infers that folks are really under the gun to deliver more than ever before.

"Trying to be a better person every day, in combination with the wonder of creativity and building, is what made the internet interesting in the early days. Who are these people who are turning communities into sad opposites of these values?"

I'd challenge the assertion that productivity hacking and the self-improvement hustle are what made the internet interesting in the early days. Creativity and exploration, absolutely!

If your flow is converting your time into productivity for a company, for no increase in shared compensation for the result of that productivity, then that's tots cool for you.

I think many are tired of it and you're seeing them say "no."

[marksmith2996]

Its sad that people don't want to spend the measly 80 they get on the planet making widgets for someone else to get rich? Ok.

[emadabdulrahim]

I noticed that too, and my initial reaction was similar to yours.

But then I realized there's nothing wrong with "Self-improvement is embracing your messy, imperfect life". The paradox is that letting go of the fantasies we have of ourselves can actually help us move closer to a better version of who we'd like to be.

For example, today I woke up and thought "I should just accept the fact the I'll likely waste many hours on YouTube, Twitter, podcasts, etc." The funny thing, it already put me at ease that if the day ends up being like this, it won't totally surprise me, and perhaps I won't judge myself too harshly for it.

Which in turn could change the direction of my day, now that I feel a bit more relaxed and less uptight.

We'll see.

[erwincoumans]

The time you enjoy wasting, is not wasted time (Bertrand Russell).

[craigmart]

Although I don't agree with the article, I can understand how someone could start hating work and the urge to be always productive. Our economy promotes competitiveness, which of course creates progress and brought us where we are now, but I think covid worked as catalyst for all the pressure the workers were feeling because of this. And when you are so distressed by the system it's way easier to believe that you don't have to work as hard to be happy instead of starting to push harder

[throwaway_JiY4E]

> sad trend recently > Who are these people who are turning communities into sad opposites of these values?

it's not about sad versus happy, but "doing" versus "being". And it's not a multiple choice test. Just you cannot ignore the other polarity.

[SuoDuanDao]

There seems to definitely be some astroturfing going on with respect to anti-work, pro-union sentiment, and I agree it seems to have found Hackernews recently, from my perspective it looks like a sudden influx.

That said, I agree with at least the headline in your second point - making any kind of positive change requires accepting the current state of affairs as it is first. I've found that the phases in my life where I feel content and not constantly needing to 'change' were actually those times where I was able to most consolidate the gains I was struggling towards the rest of the time. I think it might have something to do with not being in crisis management mode that allows the mind to relax into new configurations. Of course, YMMV.

[yesenadam]

From the guidelines: "Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email [e-mail] and we'll look at the data."

[SuoDuanDao]

My bad, I'll word that kind of sentiment differently in the future.

[yesenadam]

Thanks..but don't just "word it differently"—don't word it at all. Instead, if you believe some comments are astroturfing, please write to HN with the specific details, as (hopefully) no-one here wants that, but only the mod(s) can and will do something about it.

[thefrozenone]

Astroturf? Which powerful interest in the world right now wants people to work less?

[dnissley]

Maybe people forgot, but we live in the age of the internet, where it only takes a small group of enterprising individuals to astroturf. No elite involvement required.

[dymk]

Or maybe a lot of people sympathize with the idea and post about it now

[DarylZero]

I thought they were talking about anti-antiwork astroturfers. Which would have actually made sense.

[AussieWog93]

> Astroturf? Which powerful interest in the world right now wants people to work less?

The CCP. Xi Jinping absolutely stands to benefit domestically from discord being sown in the West, especially if it's of a Marxist nature and broadly in agreement with the doctrine of Common Prosperity.

(Not actually accusing anyone of anything - there's no way their propaganda department could be this competent - just answering the question directly).

[Apocryphon]

China’s got their own equivalent movement to deal with:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29372166

Of course, you could claim both nations’ intelligence services are engaged in a game of rival psyops, but stories like this would seem to indicate there’s worker discontent that crosses borders.

[AussieWog93]

>stories like this would seem to indicate there’s worker discontent that crosses borders

100%, man.

My point wasn't that "China's probably doing this"; just that there are other powerful interests outside of corporate lobbyists that have very different goals.

I can't see a mix of obscene inflation (mainly in rent/real estate prices), a culture of conspicuous consumption and a WW1-style class divide where competent working class people are bossed around by the reject offspring of the upper 20% leading to anything more than mass discontent.

[Apocryphon]

Anti-work and pro-union are orthogonal, and there has been restive pro-union sentiment on this forum for years. It has not really increased during this time, even though the present moment (a local maxima of labor demand) would be a prime time to start organizing.

[7888290]

You should also read "Bullshit Jobs" book. The very purposelessness of this system and the exploitation killed every ounce of creativity from many individuals.

Antiwork is not fueled by lazy people - there's nothing wrong with that subreddit or this movement in general.

Life just got dull and boring and the routine of being a purposeful pushed people to their limits because at the same time, they see a pandemic and the planet's destruction via climate change.

And we support to support this?

Trying to be a better person every day, wonder of creativity and building got destroyed by modern capitalism.

[spaceisballer]

On one hand I’m happy people are wising up about how they shouldn’t take all this crap from workplaces and bad managers. You deserve to be respected and compensated for your work and not abused. All of that is great. I just hope it spurs movement to better us all not just bitching and being shitty just because screw work.

[notreallyserio]

One way to help these people is to assume the best intentions and provide support for them, even if it's just verbal or emotional support.

There are definitely always going to be the "fuck all work give me free stuff" folks, but I think it's important not to let their presence detract from the overall movement. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good and all that.

[7888290]

Agreed. I hope it will be finally a movement. Judging from online communities, it already is.

[slowmovintarget]

You don't have to work for someone else, but you do need to work. It is how humans function, how they gain fulfillment and happiness. Especially with respect to completion. That's why the virtuous side of video games can dig someone out of depression. Setting a goal, working at it, meeting it, and pursuing the next one is the antithesis of depression. The negative side of games comes from the addiction cycles built into many of them... but I digress. It would be better to set goals in real life, work to meet them, then set the next goal. You have tangible results: a clean room, a meal cooked, a fence mended, a yard mowed, a chair built, a sale made, a customer served, and yes, payment earned.

The "movement" may intend to be about "meaning" and "exploitation," but the likelihood it turns into being about transfer payments and forcing people who do work to support the leisure of those who have decided they have a "right" not to is fairly high. I say this because it's happened before.

[mlac]

Everyone works for someone else. You can work purely for yourself, but if you don’t have a customer you will starve.

Even a solo company works for other people - it’s just that they can fire bad customers and it doesn’t take away their entire income. This is a much different power dynamic than an employer employee, but you’re still working for someone else (customers or investors) or you’re not bringing in money.

[ncr100]

I would offer the explanation that it's the calendar. It's January. New year's rejuvenation could be taking hold of more of us than it normally does in other months.

[fullshark]

I think it's the end of the business (or hype) cycle around web 2.0 + COVID making one rethink the value proposition of trading time for money (work). Which is why you have the web 3.0 business (or hype) cycle + metaverse + whatever trying to get pushed to motivate engineers again. Once in a lifetime opportunity on the horizon don't miss it! Or even better, you can create it yourself!

[wnolens]

I think there's a cost to constant striving, and it's insidious.

[PinkMilkshake]

I don't think so, but I could be wrong. Japanese-style Niito (NEET), Chinese Tang ping (lying flat) and now the Antiwork movement in the West. They all have a similar sentiment, that the promise of a better life through hard work is a lie. I think the pandemic just accelerated what was already underway.

[HollywoodZero]

As soon as many of us went to remote work, suddenly there's this rise of making the "perfect" home office.

Why? why do I need to buy more stuff, take on the extra work of making my home office LOOK like a pristine zen room? Do I need all the LED lights that streamers use?

I thought the whole point of working from home was the flexibility to do work when and where was best for me. Sometimes I find myself after hours in my basement thinking, why don't I just go sit outside and enjoy the sun? I have entires days when I basically go from the upstairs to the downstairs and then back up at the end of the day. No different from going to the office, only the office was my basement.

[tayo42]

This example seems contradictory?

> Hacker News submission "Self-improvement is embracing your messy, imperfect life"

> Trying to be a better person every day, in combination with the wonder of creativity and building, is what made the internet interesting in the early days.

These two ideas seem inline with each other?

Antiwork on reddit seems like slacktivism and whining about work on the internet, wouldn't give it much attention. People have been hating work forever. reddit is good at making vocal mintorites seem louder then they really are. those posts are getting 10s of thousands of upvotes, small in the grand scheme of things.

[k4ch0w]

That subreddit is more about not slaving away your time working 2-3 jobs to barely get by. It's people waking up to the fact that they are always busy and always behind and to the idea that working hard doesn't always equate to doing well in life.

[systemsignal]

Imo part of it could be the proliferation of easy money. When you see people making millions and retiring off doing nothing in crypto (buying pictures of apes) its hard to be motivated to do things. It all becomes bullshit

[Apocryphon]

And within tech circles, crypto is just a parodic extreme continuation of what we've been seeing for the past fifteen years ago- dumb money being thrown around at wild ideas by investors looking for crazy returns.

[itronitron]

A person can be "Antiwork" and still actively engage in the wonder of creativity and building. Most of the antiwork sentiment that I have seen online is drawing attention to very poor and often illegal management practices.

[iratewizard]

The useful idiots who pray for the revolution everyday truly believe that it will be endless charity for them instead of forced labor.

[beaconstudios]

Labour is not the same thing as work.

[bryanrasmussen]

It is however a closely linked synonym.

[beaconstudios]

Labour is doing productive things, work is employment. Antiwork and other related things like "the abolition of work" by Bob Black are against wage labour and capitalist exploitation moreso than the need to do things to keep the world turning.

[SuoDuanDao]

Do they offer any alternative? I'm all for payment shifting from 'buts in seats' to 'paid for productivity' if there's proper allowance for taking time for quality, but somehow that doesn't seem the kind of direction people are thinking in.

[beaconstudios]

"paid for productivity" is not on the table for anarchists because it's still capitalism and anarchists are anti capitalist.

[_oghd]

collective ownership is the alternative. abolition of private property. it's the core idea of anarchist and anti-capitalist thought.

[matheusmoreira]

Hopefully capitalism will one day automate everything to the point no labor is necessary and society will evolve into post scarcity rather than communism.