[JetAlone]

I'd want to question why I'm doing it. For example do I have kids I need to stick around to support? Or am I just going to be discharged to mostly play video games, alone? Because I don't see a need to extend that life.

Then I'd want to think about what it symbolizes. Is it really so irrational to just let my body die when my God-given guts fail instead of depending on the hands of man to possibly convert my body into an abomination just to keep me alive here longer?

I read in a book about a monk refusing to get a pacemaker, saying "Imagine, God is calling me up to Heaven because it's my time, and this machine holds me down here on earth!" and while I may not be a monk, his decision seemed fairly wise to me. So I already have an example of a devout faithful man eschewing a life extending operation that involved no replacement of human with animal parts.

[mlyle]

Conversely, there's this well-worn pseudo-parable:

A fellow was stuck on his rooftop in a flood. He was praying to God for help.

Soon a man in a rowboat came by and the fellow shouted to the man on the roof, “Jump in, I can save you.”

The stranded fellow shouted back, “No, it’s OK, I’m praying to God and he is going to save me.” So the rowboat went on.

Then a motorboat came by. “The fellow in the motorboat shouted, “Jump in, I can save you.”

To this the stranded man said, “No thanks, I’m praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith.” So the motorboat went on.

Then a helicopter came by and the pilot shouted down, “Grab this rope and I will lift you to safety.”

To this the stranded man again replied, “No thanks, I’m praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith.” So the helicopter reluctantly flew away.

Soon the water rose above the rooftop and the man drowned. He went to Heaven. He finally got his chance to discuss this whole situation with God, at which point he exclaimed, “I had faith in you but you didn’t save me, you let me drown. I don’t understand why!”

To this God replied, “I sent you a rowboat and a motorboat and a helicopter, what more did you expect?”

[JetAlone]

I've heard this one, yes. From my experience of learning about the God that I pray to, I highly doubt He's sending me commenters asking me one liners about seat belts and dialysis to convince me that the monk I admire was wrong, and that I should change my mindset to become more like the atheists I'm surrounded by.

Rowboats, helicopters etc. in a flood, prima facia, seem to be more in character as a deliverance from a natural disaster. My interpretation of that parable is that this man has a vainglorious hope to be saved via an undeniable miracle of mystical, luminous teleportation so he can point to it and go "Look, see! I was right all along".

[mlyle]

> Rowboats, helicopters etc. in a flood, prima facia, seem to be more in character as a deliverance from a natural disaster.

Sure. But how we define "abomination" comes down to what we're used to.

Is taking a cheap statin that will improve your length of life subverting God's will?

If we're saying something is resource intensive and you don't give much back to the world in comparison to the resources used to prolong your life, that's an economic / purely utilitarian argument.

[JetAlone]

>how we define "abomination" comes down to what we're used to.

If a person believes scripture is only a cultural document and not divine revelation then that would be the definition of abomination. I have to personally disagree with that assessment.

>Is taking a cheap statin that will improve your length of life subverting God's will?

It could be, depending on what it means in the bigger picture. I believe we know very little of God's will in any given moment because of how fallen we are. We benefit from being humble and willing to submit to it, using our provided minds well but never allowing them to be the final authority.

>that's an economic / purely utilitarian argument

I place economics and utilitarianism as a subordinate agent to the higher principles. A utilitarian framework is one of many that can help me see a stronger meaning in letting someone else have the resources, and accepting death if it appears to be the due time for it anyways.

[mlyle]

> > how we define "abomination" comes down to what we're used to.

> If a person believes scripture is only a cultural document and not divine revelation then that would be the definition of abomination. I have to personally disagree with that assessment.

That's not what I claimed. But to claim something is "abomination" based on your own personal recoil from it isn't very useful as a moral framework.

> and accepting death if it appears to be the due time for it anyways.

What's the "due time", though? Biblical figures lived for hundreds of years, supposedly. And it takes extraordinary efforts to have as low of an infant mortality rate as we do.

Surely the heroics in the NICU are how we move the time of death from what would happen on its own the most, and some of the more expensive medical care given. Hey, many of those babies will never repay to society the resources they consume.

What you seem to be saying is that it comes down to some mix between a reflexive judgment and cold utilitarianism.

[JetAlone]

>But to claim something is "abomination" based on your own personal recoil from it isn't very useful as a moral framework.

I said that something could possibly be an abomination, that being a human being with pig guts installed in place of their human guts. Is that my own personal recoil? I don't know 100% it seems to me that there's room to discuss how a "chimeric" transplant could symbolically be that. My entire purpose for mentioning it as such was ultimately to point to how a non materialist viewpoint _could_ point away from taking the operation even where strict religious dietary laws are not at play.

>What's the "due time", though?

Determined on a very personal level, not something I can prescribe here and now. I've done my best in these comments to point to the sort of meanings that may help me decide that for myself, but the responders don't seem to be terribly pleased with them.

>What you seem to be saying is that it comes down to some mix between a reflexive judgment and cold utilitarianism.

No, those are just some of the tools I have, the ones accessible to me right now.

[wruza]

I've heard this one, but then and now, what did God expect, if He didn't send any event to the man which would make him think that 1,2,3 was the salvation. He knows everything in advance, doesn't He?

[mlyle]

I think the message is that one should use one's own agency, and not expect a hand-delivered message from God on what to do in each circumstance, in addition to whatever opportunity at deliverance one receives.

Or, viewed another way... If an obvious opportunity at reasonable safety is there, what gives one the right to demand that God show up to perform a dramatic miracle?

[derekp7]

Do you feel the same way about other life saving technologies such as seat belts and motorcycle helmets? What about hitting the anti lock breaks when a semi pulls out in front of you? The same philosophy can be applied to other life saving / extending measures such as adjustments to diet, or taking high blood pressure medicine.

[JetAlone]

No. None of those safety implements you describe are things that alter the structure of my body, they are applied to augment the safety of existing pieces of external technology. So if they symbolize something negative, it would have to be along the lines of "constraining worldly authority" which could be argued to be a natural precaution, or an overprotective tyrannical overreach, but the nature of it is not the same as the operation. I do not share this materialist/gnostic mindset which tends to make a person consider matter to be essentially all the same in meaning, with a dead universe acted upon at a libertine perogative through a window of the human mind.

Everything has become for me a layered network of symbolic meaning. The diet is about resisting gluttonous impulses and building up my body via natural means towards an ideal intended by the Creator. High blood pressure medicine may be an enactment of an archetype of a good doctor, or not, depending on how the medicine itself interacts with this network of meanings.

[theplumber]

>> things that alter the structure of my body

Lol...the structure of your body is "contaminated"/changed all the time. You are living in an continuously changing ecosystem. The clothes you've been wearing all this time changed your body structure. You are pretty much a byproduct/result of the ecosystem. I'm sorry to disappoint you but your faith is a "change" as well given by people around you. The key(word )that you've been looking for is "delusional". Find its meaning and it will set you free the way the creator intended

[JetAlone]

Come now, do you think the gut flora that naturally interacts with my body, etc. and lives and dies (death being explainable as a consequence of the fall anyways) is on the same order of meaning to me as the changes enacted by God-image bearing man? It's not comparable to me.

The change brought about in my faith is a divine change given by the Divine Persons from outside this temporal universe who love me! Yes! A salvific change! To those who cannot see this light, it understandably does look like a delusion, and I don't blame them for seeing it that way, that's part of their own personal life.

[theplumber]

My advice stands: The key(word )that you're looking for is "delusional". Find its meaning and it will set you free the way the creator intended.

[wruza]

Can we please not have discussions like this here. I'm just a regular user, but I think most of us will agree. It may have a first-hand educational effect sometimes, but it rarely stays positive.

[JetAlone]

This advice only "stands", for apostasy and betrayal of the people I love in my community, and of the martyrs and saints who underwent beatings and who gave their lives for God being tortured to death in the colosseum. To give up and let their view, consumed with love for God and each other die in me... All because I couldn't endure a little hostility from some unknown people on the internet who thought I was silly for seeing as much meaning in things as I do.

[greedo]

I have had Lasik eye surgery to alter defects in my vision. So that might be an abomination? I also had a colostomy after fighting cancer, so my stoma might be an abomination? That about the knee surgery that repaired a torn meniscus?

[JimDabell]

> Imagine, God is calling me up to Heaven because it's my time, and this machine holds me down here on earth!

This logic only seems to work if you believe the pacemaker is more powerful than your god’s will.

[JetAlone]

God's will is not so forceful as to supernaturally reach into the world and kill someone clinging to life, even if by evil means. If it were, and He reached down and destroyed the device every single time, you'd be likely to rebel all the more, calling Him a tyrant! No, this monk was truly no fool, he must have been a wise, simple old man who lived his life humbly doing his best to love those around him.

[JimDabell]

What do you mean by “not so forceful”?

If you mean that it is literally too weak to accomplish this, then this doesn’t fit typical conceptions of deities.

If you mean that it’s more of a preference than something he is insisting upon, then if a person chooses to extend their lifespan it isn’t going against your god’s will.

Is there another meaning I’m missing?

[mlyle]

Eh, this is a pretty fundamental piece of theology. There doesn't seem to be a God that is meddling in everyday choices and outcomes. At least, really bad things seem to be happening that one hopes aren't God's will.

So, pretty much everyone who thinks about this and has a faith has to come up with some compromise. E.g. that there is a deity that has permitted humans free will to make their own decisions and that various bad things happen as a result of that free will / those choices.

[JetAlone]

I think it's on my end. I think I failed to make a crucial distinction between "will" and "allow" here. God does allow us to do things that go against His will. He is not too weak, but chooses not to use all His power to force us to do stuff in our lives because He wants a relationship. He has a preference which, while it may not always be easy to see, is borne out of love and is ultimately better for us than what we might insist upon.

[tired_medicine]

If you developed end-stage renal disease requiring hemodialysis, are you planning on dying, or are you okay with extending your life by ~10 years with dialysis?

[JetAlone]

Do I have people who really need me to stick around and support them in some important way? How old/aged am I already? What is my priest advising I do? How much does it cost, can that money do something more meaningful in the lives of others?

I'm not simply anti-medicine for the sake of being anti-medicine. Rather, medicine is itself a powerful tool that needs to fit into the teleology of my worldview. One that I could misuse if I am not considerate of what its use does and why I'm using it.