[mlyle]

Conversely, there's this well-worn pseudo-parable:

A fellow was stuck on his rooftop in a flood. He was praying to God for help.

Soon a man in a rowboat came by and the fellow shouted to the man on the roof, “Jump in, I can save you.”

The stranded fellow shouted back, “No, it’s OK, I’m praying to God and he is going to save me.” So the rowboat went on.

Then a motorboat came by. “The fellow in the motorboat shouted, “Jump in, I can save you.”

To this the stranded man said, “No thanks, I’m praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith.” So the motorboat went on.

Then a helicopter came by and the pilot shouted down, “Grab this rope and I will lift you to safety.”

To this the stranded man again replied, “No thanks, I’m praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith.” So the helicopter reluctantly flew away.

Soon the water rose above the rooftop and the man drowned. He went to Heaven. He finally got his chance to discuss this whole situation with God, at which point he exclaimed, “I had faith in you but you didn’t save me, you let me drown. I don’t understand why!”

To this God replied, “I sent you a rowboat and a motorboat and a helicopter, what more did you expect?”

[JetAlone]

I've heard this one, yes. From my experience of learning about the God that I pray to, I highly doubt He's sending me commenters asking me one liners about seat belts and dialysis to convince me that the monk I admire was wrong, and that I should change my mindset to become more like the atheists I'm surrounded by.

Rowboats, helicopters etc. in a flood, prima facia, seem to be more in character as a deliverance from a natural disaster. My interpretation of that parable is that this man has a vainglorious hope to be saved via an undeniable miracle of mystical, luminous teleportation so he can point to it and go "Look, see! I was right all along".

[mlyle]

> Rowboats, helicopters etc. in a flood, prima facia, seem to be more in character as a deliverance from a natural disaster.

Sure. But how we define "abomination" comes down to what we're used to.

Is taking a cheap statin that will improve your length of life subverting God's will?

If we're saying something is resource intensive and you don't give much back to the world in comparison to the resources used to prolong your life, that's an economic / purely utilitarian argument.

[JetAlone]

>how we define "abomination" comes down to what we're used to.

If a person believes scripture is only a cultural document and not divine revelation then that would be the definition of abomination. I have to personally disagree with that assessment.

>Is taking a cheap statin that will improve your length of life subverting God's will?

It could be, depending on what it means in the bigger picture. I believe we know very little of God's will in any given moment because of how fallen we are. We benefit from being humble and willing to submit to it, using our provided minds well but never allowing them to be the final authority.

>that's an economic / purely utilitarian argument

I place economics and utilitarianism as a subordinate agent to the higher principles. A utilitarian framework is one of many that can help me see a stronger meaning in letting someone else have the resources, and accepting death if it appears to be the due time for it anyways.

[mlyle]

> > how we define "abomination" comes down to what we're used to.

> If a person believes scripture is only a cultural document and not divine revelation then that would be the definition of abomination. I have to personally disagree with that assessment.

That's not what I claimed. But to claim something is "abomination" based on your own personal recoil from it isn't very useful as a moral framework.

> and accepting death if it appears to be the due time for it anyways.

What's the "due time", though? Biblical figures lived for hundreds of years, supposedly. And it takes extraordinary efforts to have as low of an infant mortality rate as we do.

Surely the heroics in the NICU are how we move the time of death from what would happen on its own the most, and some of the more expensive medical care given. Hey, many of those babies will never repay to society the resources they consume.

What you seem to be saying is that it comes down to some mix between a reflexive judgment and cold utilitarianism.

[JetAlone]

>But to claim something is "abomination" based on your own personal recoil from it isn't very useful as a moral framework.

I said that something could possibly be an abomination, that being a human being with pig guts installed in place of their human guts. Is that my own personal recoil? I don't know 100% it seems to me that there's room to discuss how a "chimeric" transplant could symbolically be that. My entire purpose for mentioning it as such was ultimately to point to how a non materialist viewpoint _could_ point away from taking the operation even where strict religious dietary laws are not at play.

>What's the "due time", though?

Determined on a very personal level, not something I can prescribe here and now. I've done my best in these comments to point to the sort of meanings that may help me decide that for myself, but the responders don't seem to be terribly pleased with them.

>What you seem to be saying is that it comes down to some mix between a reflexive judgment and cold utilitarianism.

No, those are just some of the tools I have, the ones accessible to me right now.

[mlyle]

> I don't know 100% it seems to me that there's room to discuss how a "chimeric" transplant could symbolically be that.

Anything that tampers with nature taking its course on its own could be an abomination. Like putting blood from another being into an infant and hooking them up to crazy machines and causing pain to the infant to save their life.

Of course, any failure to save someone's life which is readily saved could also be an abomination.

It all comes down to what one weighs as important.

> even where strict religious dietary laws are not at play.

Most strict dietary laws would allow one to eat the item, or have it put into your body, to survive. The systems with these doctrines largely have exceptions for literally millennia, because we understand that people being able to choose to live trumps artificial restrictions. (Indeed, some reach further to say that extending ones life in violation of these laws is not just permissible, but a duty).

> Determined on a very personal level, not something I can prescribe here and now.

It's fair to say "eh, I've had a good run-- why go further?" I've argued as such here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29432560 One's religious views are even a reasonable way to weigh things.

But I do think that once you reach beyond, to say that readily available care that has become routinely used to extend life (like a pacemaker) might be far outside of God's will and that this is a reasonable reason to reject it in itself-- and we can hardly ask God what He wants-- I think the argument becomes dubious.

That is, dying in infancy was the norm throughout human history. The interventions we have tamper with that outcome more than anything else. And at this point implanting a pacemaker is an outpatient procedure and on the low-scale of the medical intervention ladder.

[mlyle]

> but the responders don't seem to be terribly pleased with them.

Just to augment my previous response, and clarify this specific thing:

You may not be attempting to apply your morality and your moral judgments to others.

But the second that you claim that medical choices that someone else might reasonably choose to make are an "abomination"-- you're framing things in a way that people will reasonably interpret as judgment and wanting to prohibit-- or at least denigrate-- those choices by others.

[wruza]

I've heard this one, but then and now, what did God expect, if He didn't send any event to the man which would make him think that 1,2,3 was the salvation. He knows everything in advance, doesn't He?

[mlyle]

I think the message is that one should use one's own agency, and not expect a hand-delivered message from God on what to do in each circumstance, in addition to whatever opportunity at deliverance one receives.

Or, viewed another way... If an obvious opportunity at reasonable safety is there, what gives one the right to demand that God show up to perform a dramatic miracle?