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by star-trek-fleet 1637 days ago
None of these can be attributed to authoritarian, or some form of CCP brutality, when moderate amount of scrutiny is applied ...

> - You cannot travel abroad (no passport for average citizens, except for those that study/work abroad)

This is of course because of China's CVOID policy, which is 0 tolerance. That's a rational decision of China's high-density population, and manufacturing-based economy. I do not think it's inherent anti-human-rights, as the death count is fractional to open-co-existence policy. Life itself is a human right, and probably the most precious one.

> - You cannot go beyond China's intranet

VPNs are legal in China. You just need to be technically-sophisticated enough to find the correct VPNs, and make sure it falls in the boundary of Chinese law.

> - You cannot transfer money out of country legally, pretty soon can't invest in other countries's stocks

This is just not true... You can use various services to transfer money out. The only issue is that they are subject to certain limitations, which are far more restrictive than US. But again, US dominates world financial system, there is a view that financial imperialism is a key part of US capitalist exploiting Chinese workers. Thus the financial limitation. I doubt that anyone other than the rob-barrons are affected by this. I personally know a lot of Crypto super riches, trust me, they are absolutely a net negative force in society.

> - You cannot watch Spiderman, BTS, squid games, porn and many many more things legally

You can. VPN to netflix. And a lot of pirated content. They were just not allowed to go through the official channel. Of course, CCP is wrong here. But let's not paint a picture that Chinese people are sheeps.

> - You have very little rights as LGBT

Not sure what you are talking about. LGBT is not discriminated officially in any form in the CHinese society. Society still holds stigma over these people. One primary reason is that these groups are associated with higher chance of sexually-transmitted diseases.

And dont assume me a CCP associate, I have a good friend who is gay. He is my college friend. He is pretty happy.

> - You have to work 9-9-6. Which is why many citizens are lying flat

This is probably what forced upon by the private firms. These are punished heavily by CCP recently. Jack Ma and Alibaba are the defender of 996...

> - You are constantly watched, monitored, "invited" to police station for tea, banned for posts that contain any words that are on the growing banned list

This is not true. I have several wechat groups discussing serious political issues in China. None of the 50 people ever had any sign of being bothered. I mean, there is no way that one is constantly watched in China. If that's true, China either already have an AGI, or what we bought everyone are not actually made in China, because there are simply not enough cheap labor to produce them in the first place, and most of them are employed in watching others.

> - You should not get rich (1/3 of billionaires have died or disappeared)

1/3 of billionaires have died or disappeared...

First, the number of billionaires are unknown. Chinese society had a tradition of the rich become victims during the terminal phase of the dynasty. So the rich is very well aware of this fact, and they hide. Do you know that Mr. Deng Xiaoping's son is astronomically rich, but you'll never see anywhere his net worth is published?

Second, please give a citation... To engage this discussion is putting legitimacy on this ridiculous claim...

> - You have little recourse as a woman who is abused by men in power

Come on... This becomes ridiculous... Gender equality in China is pretty high. Ranked 38th out of 157 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_inequality_in_China I mean it's not spectacular, but your statement is just outlandish...

> - You are constantly subjugated to idiotic mass testing/lockdown

What do you mean? I said a lot of bad words about CCP. I was not distant by my family or friends...

> - Oh and there's the yearly flood + crashing economy + crashing real estate + aging workforce + factory jobs leaving + dictatorship

If you read western media, then these are what they said. But these are not true according to what I hear from my friends and family.

3 comments

You are spewing lies and half truth.

> Life itself is a human right, and probably the most precious one.

How can welding front gates shut be protecting human life? How can anyone survive after being cut off from food, medicine, supplies, contact, income? Don't pretend zero-tolerance policy is about protecting people, it is to protect Xi JingPing who has staked his personal political standing on the zero tolerance policy[1].

Some regions have been under continual lock-down for the better part of this year. Do you know how many people have died from lock-down? Does anyone know? Does CCP permit anyone to count? For that matter, how many people died in Wuhan two years ago? Why is CCP killing a citizen journalist for writing about Wuhan outbreak[2]? Is her life not human?

>VPNs are legal in China. You just need to be technically-sophisticated enough to find the correct VPNs, and make sure it falls in the boundary of Chinese law.

Pray tell which VPNs are legal in China? Which one can I use to visit HN legally in China? What is stopping an enterprising person to make your "correct" VPNs user friendly to the mass? I will you, because it does not exist!

> I have several wechat groups discussing serious political issues in China.

Why don't you post to your WeChat groups "佟丽娅嫁给中宣部副部长," reputed marriage of an actress to the vice minister of Propaganda Ministry and take a screenshot? You cannot even search it in Baidu, and you have the gall to say the Internet in China is constantly watched.

[1] https://www.wsj.com/articles/xi-jinpings-leadership-style-mi... [2] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/china/reporter-zhang-zhan-riske...

> How can welding front gates shut be protecting human life?

No this is not.

But it's neither protecting human life by calling "Chiense virus" "Kunflu". Enough said.

> VPN

https://zh.vpnmentor.com/

> Why don't you post to your WeChat groups "佟丽娅嫁给中宣部副部长," reputed marriage of an actress to the vice minister of Propaganda Ministry and take a screenshot? You cannot even search it in Baidu, and you have the gall to say the Internet in China is constantly watched.

Dude, what is this thing? I have no idea what's going on with this "佟丽娅嫁给中宣部副部长,"?

> Dude, what is this thing? I have no idea what's going on with this "佟丽娅嫁给中宣部副部长,"?

You say you are born in China, so presumably you can read Chinese. Then you can head over to [1] and read all about oversea Chinese making fun of CCP censoring salacious rumors about an actress and vice minister of Propaganda. The most powerful police apparatus and most sprawling internet censorship machinery working in overdrive to suppress tabloid, not because the rumor may or may not be false but because the Party knows the people believe it true in their heart.

[1] https://forums.huaren.us/showtopic.html?topicid=2761503&fid=...

Juicy rumors. CCP officiers now become the hot target of actresses. Wow... Not sure what's going on here.

But I suppose it's OK to respect people's privacy?

Well even as a Wumao myself, CCP screwed up at this event
This is an US site, most people here believe that they hear from the media, and is understandable, the same way most Chinese people believe that they see in CCTV. I get people in China asking if I'm safe, or if my house was assaulted by antifa. I think people if they are really interested of what is happening in either country should do their research, instead of parroting what they hear in Youtube. But yeah, you will get downvoted , so will I. ;)
Well said. But the major problem is vetting the source of your research. Even academic studies are subject to bias or are simply statistical outliers (e.g., type 2 errors).

You can only go so far down the rabbit hole of research before you're wasting time. It's a lot like signal detection theory: Where do you strike the balance between effort and accuracy in research?

Indeed, maybe my phrasing was wrong, but I feel nationalism only creates feeds xenophobia, because is never "X government", is always "the chinese", "the russians" , "insert_the_current_buggy_man_here"... I also understand that there is no chance this will ever change.
> I have several wechat groups discussing serious political issues in China.

Maybe you do, but do you discuss how millions of Uighur Muslims in Xinjiang province were (are?) detained in concentration camps [0] and forced to provide quarter to government agents in their own homes under a dehumanizing “big brother” program [1]? Or how the CCP forced Uighurs to surgically implant IUDs and undergo forced abortion and sterilization procedures [2]? That would probably get you on the CCP’s radar.

Don’t pretend like there’s any semblance of open discussion about truly controversial issues.

> I mean, there is no way that one is constantly watched in China.

The “constantly watched” bit is a total strawman. Nobody is implying that all Chinese citizens are constantly watched by CCP thugs. All that is needed is a search engine on top of indexed WeChat message contents to help direct a limited number of investigations against political dissidents who may threaten the CCP’s grip on power - or as they refer to it, “stability”.

[0]: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1270014

Selected quote: “Every former camp detainee Amnesty interviewed in the report recounted cruel and degrading treatment, including torture. The report, released Thursday, is based on interviews with 108 people, including 55 camp survivors and several government cadres who worked in the camps.”

Yes, it happened. Your most recent comment as of right now attempts to cast doubt on this fact.

[1]: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/05/08/asia/china-xinjiang-ethni...

Selected quote: “Her four "guests" are Chinese government cadres who lived in her home for 10 days every month for two years before her family fled, she said.”

Think about what that would be like. It’s as horrible as it is effective, and it’s partly why the Third Amendment to the US Constitution exists.

[2]: https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-we...

Selected quote: “But while equal on paper, in practice Han Chinese are largely spared the abortions, sterilizations, IUD insertions and detentions for having too many children that are forced on Xinjiang’s other ethnicities, interviews and data show.”

Think about what it would be like for your government to show up at your door, handcuff you, take you to a hospital, anesthetize you, and surgically remove your ability to procreate. That’s what the CCP does to its own people.

> do you discuss how millions of Uighur Muslims in Xinjiang province were (are?) detained in concentration camps [0]

We discuss that. That was viewed as a western media propaganda. I.e., no hard proof from any reputable organizations (UN for example).

> All that is needed is a search engine on top of indexed WeChat message

I know far worse things the local government did using their information monopoly. You don't need to educate me on that.

What I replied is that the OP wanted to paint a picture of a dystopian monitoring in China, that's not what happens.

> Your most recent comment as of right now attempts to cast doubt on this fact.

These are reports, not facts. I dont believe these reports, because these media shows some incredible buntant manipulation. I simply cannot trust people like these. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eS8EceIa1MQ&t=115s

> Her four "guests" are Chinese government cadres who lived in her home for 10 days every month for two years before her family fled, she said.

Well, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eS8EceIa1MQ&t=115s, this certainly could be true, but I just cannot fully trust media photoshops trees to extend a narrative.\

> But while equal on paper, in practice Han Chinese are largely spared the abortions, sterilizations, IUD insertions and detentions for having too many children that are forced on Xinjiang’s other ethnicities, interviews and data show.

LMAO

My mother, a Han people, was subject to forced abortion. I was born in a different city than my hometown to evade that.

Stop painting racial conflicts, when there is none.

The lies can go on for a while, but they cannot last forever...

>We discuss that. That was viewed as a western media propaganda. I.e., no hard proof from any reputable organizations (UN for example).

United Nations statement titled "China: UN experts deeply concerned by alleged detention, forced labour of Uyghurs" https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?N...

Statement from 43 countries presented at UN "Joint statement on human rights situation in Xinjiang at 47th Session of UN Human Rights Council" https://www.international.gc.ca/world-monde/international_re...

Amnesty International says "China: Draconian repression of Muslims in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity" https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2021/06/china-draconi...

Human Rights Watch article "China’s Weak Excuse to Block Investigations in Xinjiang" https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/03/25/chinas-weak-excuse-block...

Another report titled "First independent report into Xinjiang genocide allegations claims evidence of Beijing's 'intent to destroy' Uyghur people" https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/09/asia/china-uyghurs-xinjiang-g...

>The lies can go on for a while, but they cannot last forever...

Indeed.

I have friends visiting Xinjiang and talked with local people, Uyghur and non Uyghurs. There is no evidence that supports the 1M number. You can watch a lot of YouTube video of people visiting Xinjiang and the local people. Make your own judgement.
You're changing the criteria?

>We discuss that. That was viewed as a western media propaganda. I.e., no hard proof from any reputable organizations (UN for example).

In response to that comment, I linked reports from the United Nations, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. Those are 3 of the most reputable organizations in the world in the field of human rights (the links also point out that it's impossible to investigate thoroughly because the Chinese Government won't allow access).

I'm supposed to believe some random Youtuber over them? That's what you're telling me? That's especially hilarious because the very article we're discussing is about manipulating social media, including creating videos specifically for youtube.

Or are you nitpicking the 1M number? If it's 10,000 or 1 million it's still a gross violation of human rights.

They are allegations based on western media reports, which themselves are based on dubious evidences.

Everything so far regarding Xinjiang are all one-sided news rehashing from a few individuals, while the US intelligence with its cutting-edge spy satellites, field agents, cannot find any concrete evidences. Just coincidence?