[kwhitefoot]

Here in Norway a half litre or smaller container has a deposit of 2 kr, bigger containers are 3 kr (22 and 33 US cent respectively).

But it isn't the size of the deposit that drives the return rate (95% or more here in Norway) it is the ease of doing it.

Here all shops that sell such goods are required to accept the containers in return even if they were not purchased in that shop and even if they are of a different brand.

So every supermarket has a reverse vending machine [1] where you deposit the bottles and cans and get a receipt that you can exchange for money or goods at the till.

[1] Usually from Tomra: https://www.tomra.com/en/collection/reverse-vending/deposit-...

[Aissen]

Saw that at your neighboor's in Copenhagen, and after the first outrage of paying +50cts per drink, I understood that I was seeing a glimpse the future… If littering is equivalent to throwing money, you simply won't do it.

Weird side-effect: homeless people might ask for your empty bottle and do the collection. Not sure how I feel about that though…

[oaiey]

> Weird side-effect: homeless people might ask for your empty bottle and do the collection. Not sure how I feel about that though…

It becomes a respectful cooperation. When you party in a park, you place your containers next to a trash so a homeless can pick it up without searching the trash. They basically help you partying hard (and not caring/carrying about the bottles) and earn (by hard work) a bit of money.

[berkes]

In Germany -at least the cities I'm familiar with- everyone places their cans and bottles next to the trash-can. German bottles often have "pfand gehört daneben" (Deposits belong next to it) printed on them[0]. And some cities even placed special holders alongside the trashcans[1].

Like with many things, Germans have made deposit collection into an efficient job.

[0] https://kaiserkiwi.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/fritz-kola-... [1] https://www.linksfraktion-hannover.de/fileadmin/fraktionhann...

[carlmr]

The only issue is that glass bottles are too cheap and heavy.

They should at least have a 25 cent deposit as well. Right now no homeless person picks those up, because it's just not worth it.

Even with 25 cents there would still be a disincentive due to the weight, but I also don't want to incentivize bottle makers to produce more plastic, for them to lower the price at the counter.

[tobltobs]

It is 25 cent for glas, plastic bottles or cans in Germany.

[rndgermandude]

I really wish it was that easy, but it's not.

Single-use containers are 25 cents, indeed, but a lot of the stuff you will buy is multi-use, and there things vary. Multi-use plastic bottles and large glass bottles usually have a 15 cents deposit, and small beer glass bottles it is only 8 cents, unless they have a clip-lock (Flensburger e.g.) then it's 15 cents again. Vine bottles are extremely confusing, ranging from no deposit, to 2 or 3 cents, to 15 cents.

I saw a lot of bottle collector people skip glass bottles, in particular beer bottles. I live close to a minor league football (soccer) stadium that also hosts the local American Football team and various other events, and bottle collectors are a constant sight before, during and after the games and events. The two closest city tram stops are quite often still littered all over with multi-use beer bottles even days after, because bottle collectors do not like those things. Too heavy and bulky at only 8 cents. People "litter" deliberately, being told the bottle collector people will be happy and thankful for the easy collection...

If I remember correctly, this difference in deposit amount was justified by reasoning lower multi-use deposits compared to single-use deposits would drive the adoption of multi-use. I don't think it has done that much, not really. When single-use deposits became a thing, a lot of single-use containers vanished completely, but once the collection systems got established a lot of it just returned.

I personally would outlaw most types of single-use containers, especially for "cold" beverages, and actually make the deposits all the same amount. That would have a far better and greater impact than bickering about outlawing plastic straws, at the very least. And a glass beer bottle might be worth picking up if it's 25 cents you get for it instead of 8.

[_0ffh]

Nope, glass bottles are just 8 cents.

[orangepurple]

I don't understand the point of recycling glass. Most glass is mostly sand, an abundant raw material.

[wreckdropibex]

You would imagine sand was abundant, but: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20191108-why-the-world-is...

Also, glass can be recycled near infinitely and 1 ton of glass created from recycled glass requires 30% less energy than from raw materials: https://www.palpa.fi/juomapakkausten-kierratys/eri-juomapakk...

Also, in another world:

- 87% of recyclable glass bottles are recycled https://www.palpa.fi/juomapakkausten-kierratys/eri-juomapakk...

- 97% of reusable glass bottles are returned for reuse https://www.palpa.fi/juomapakkausten-kierratys/eri-juomapakk...

- Reusable glass bottles are reused on AVERAGE 33 times https://www.ekopullo.fi/fi/

[KineticLensman]

> Most glass is mostly sand, an abundant raw material.

Sand is not actually an abundant raw material [0]. Although sand in general is abundant, sand that is usable for construction and manufacturing is generally found on beaches and flood-plains - desert sand is less angular and usable. We extract 50 billion tonnes of sand per year and this is getting worse as a result of continued massive urbanisation. Ocean dredging for sand has significant ecological input.

This might not be why glass recycling started, but it suggests an incentive for continuing to do so.

[0] https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20191108-why-the-world-is...

[gruez]

AFAIK it's because the initial sand -> glass process is energy intensive, much more so than melting existing glass.

[MomoXenosaga]

Garbage collectors don't want to handle glass when it's mixed in with the other waste. So it is already collected separately. Might as well recycle it.

[rob74]

Yeah, most people are considerate enough to either take their bottles with them or put them somewhere where they can be collected easily, as you wrote. And, even if beer bottles only have 8 cents deposit, are heavy, stinky and the remaining beer may run out, they do get collected sometimes. But, to avoid the impression that in Germany everything works perfectly, I should also mention the (maybe fewer) others, who don't care about the 8 cents and simply smash the bottles on the sidewalk for "fun". As a cyclist, I have a special love for this second category...

[cyberpunk]

Yeh until the machines reject your four crates of beer for no reason and you’re in that limbo of “do I care about €10 enough to lug these to another edeka or not” ;)

[VBprogrammer]

I remember asking a German friend why people were leaving the bottles on top of the bins when we went to a football match.

Growing up in Scotland collecting Irn Bru bottles was something you could do for "sweetie" money. I was disappointed the last time I looked to find out that they have now decommissioned their bottle cleaning plant. Apparently conventional recycling has resulted in the rate of return being too low.

[adam-a]

They are planning to bring it back in Scotland, as a more univeral scheme like the GP descirbes in Norway. The timeline keeps getting pushed back due to lobbying from the drinks industry though: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/dec/14/scotland-del...

[newsclues]

It can become a disrespectful cooperation as well.

I’ve had people rummage through recycling bin for cans and leaving a mess, I’ve seen fights over who gets to collect cans, and I’ve seen trespassing to collect cans from people’s private porches.

When collecting cans goes from a lucrative hobby to a business, problems arise.

[qw]

i have seen some trash cans in Oslo with a separate cylinder for bottles that gives easy access to the bottles. I hope this becomes more popular, so that they don't have to dig through the trash cans.

[runj__]

I don't know about "respectful" for both parties. Bottle collectors trying to take/steal not yet empty bottles and cans has become more of a rule than an exception in parks in central Stockholm.

I'm still very much in favour of container deposit but I'm growing really tired of forceful collecting.

[lillecarl]

The people you're referring to are likely not the same kind of people who collect bottles in other countries.

My friend has this jokish ticks screaming out "Min pant"(roughly translates into "my cans) when we're a bit drunk, referring to this exact problem. It's inappropriate to go into further detail than to say he's not making fun of any Swedes.

It's one of the downsides of free movement within the EU when you're a country that's built on assuming most people will do right for themselves, the it breaks.

[rndgermandude]

I see such behavior here in Germany sometimes, too. Like everywhere else in life, there are nice bottle collectors, and there are assholes.

One collector gave me a sticky, wet butt, because he snuck up behind us in a park, "stole" my half empty beer bottle I placed next to me, and then proceeded to empty it out right there. It was one of the very few times I had trouble controlling myself not to hit somebody... I managed to control myself in the end enough to avoid violence, but was still angry enough to call the cops on the guy. Cops told him to not show up in the park or surrounding parks for the rest of the day, and when they asked if I wanted to press charges (technically it was theft and damage of property), the collector waved a 20 Euro note for "cleaning costs", which I took instead. I felt that was punishment enough.

Then again, there is plenty of bottle collectors who are rather polite, and humbly ask if you're done with the bottle and if they can have it. And a lot of people also gather together their empty bottles in a pile when they see a collector approaching.

[lillecarl]

I'm quite disappointed you didn't press charges to he honest, (s)he must've understood perfectly what (s)he was doing and the consequences, yet he still did it. And you're likely not the only person abused like that.

Yes there are loads of nice appreciative collectors and they are doing us a service, it's just sad when the predators come and ruin it.

[_0ffh]

>"Min pant"(roughly translates into "my cans)

Sounds more like "my deposit" to me.

[lillecarl]

Sure, I find it easier to translate English to Swedish than the other way around I guess.

Though they are referring to your soon to be recycled cans and bottles when semi-agressively trying to steal them from you.

[freeflight]

Sounds like "Mein Pfand" to me.

[strajk]

How much is a deposit compared to the full price of a drink?

Here in Czechia it's 3czk deposit for ~20czk full drink price and I've never noticed anybody even asking for the bottles, yet alone "stealing" them.

[msh]

In DK it goes up to 3 DKR for a 1,5 liters bottle of soda that you might pay 15-25 dkr for.

[freeflight]

All these deposits are so low. Germany has 25 cent on non-beer plastic bottles.

Which means when buying a 1,5 liters bottle of water, the bottle is worth more (25 cent) than the water in it (19 cent).

Bottle collectors are quite common, haven't met any rude ones myself, but they are even speed-collecting trough the trash cans of trains stopped making stops at the station.

[swlp21]

> homeless people might ask for your empty bottle and do the collection

I lived in Alberta 10 years ago and this was totally a thing. One homeless guy hung around the apartment and if you were carrying drink containers he would come and say "Can I take them to the store for you?". Of course, he meant could he get the deposit money on them too. He would hang around until he could fill two or three large garbage bags then head off to the return center to collect the deposit money. In all the time I lived there, I never found out where the actual return center was as I never needed to. The few $ involved was no loss to me (or anyone else in the apartment) but went towards the homeless guy being able to buy food. Never once did he seem drunk or high so he really did seem to be doing it to get food. I would see other guys like him walking along the street with garbage bags of bottles too, so it appeared to be the thing they did and it seemed to work out for everyone as I spoke to lots of people who said they also had a local homeless person that did the same at their apartments.

[ratww]

When I lived in Brazil there was no reliable municipal recycling in my city, and no bottle deposit, so instead of throwing paper, cans and bottles into the common garbage, we just left it properly separated at the door and a homeless guy with a cart would pick it up weekly and get it recycled.

They were pretty much running a public utility service I'd otherwise have to pay for with taxes.

[me_me_me]

> If littering is equivalent to throwing money, you simply won't do it.

I have learnt that when organising events at work (sponsored by workplace), you have to charge people. Any amount like €5, its two cups of coffee but turn-up rate is in high 90% of people that paid upfront. Without charging any money its 50-60%

The number of people that sign up were pretty similar, so I hazard a guess that risk aversion was at play.

Its a powerful tool even if you know about it.

[bellyfullofbac]

> Weird side-effect: homeless people might ask for your empty bottle and do the collection. Not sure how I feel about that though…

It becomes an alternative form of giving them your change, and you conveniently don't have to carry the bottle home. Although I've lived in a city where an old lady was known to roam the parks and was very pushy about wanting you to surrender your bottles.

[cafard]

Some years ago, New York passed a law on recycling. For some reason, people seemed to be surprised when it turned out that those showing up at the grocery store with carts full of recyclables were neither lawyers nor stock traders, but rather the homeless.

[fennecfoxen]

in California there are fewer dropoffs in stores but the bottles tend to come from residential recycling bins, which were raided while they were waiting for a truck to pick them up.

[QuarterReptile]

In my experience, that's common, but so is people jumping your fence to raid your cans before you've put them out. And, should you ever try to recoup the 'deposit' by going to the recycling center, you'll spend 1+ hour in line being hounded by homeless people to give them your cans.

All of it creates way more incentive to just throw your cans in the trash so you don't have to deal with any of that.

[mrexroad]

Bay Area here. My experience at recycling centers has always been quick and painless. Took over 60 lbs of cans and a bunch of scrap copper the other week. No line, no hounding.

[QuarterReptile]

My experiences in Monterey (2015) and San Diego (2019) were negative. It is good to hear that the particular issue either is not universal or has improved with time.

[Symbiote]

It's still a positive, at least if the recycling system works similar to in the EU.

Here, food containers have fairly strict limits on what recycled waste can be used to make them. Returned bottles and cans are clean enough to be made into new food packaging, but ordinary household recycling waste is not.

[kwhitefoot]

Not in Norway, not enough homeless people and far too few discarded bottles and cans.

I pick up the occasional beer can on the beach near where I live but they are almost always Polish and of course have no deposit.

[ratww]

> Weird side-effect: homeless people might ask for your empty bottle and do the collection. Not sure how I feel about that though…

That's kind of convenient actually IMO. I get rid of the bottle, I don't have to give them cash. Win-win.

[MomoXenosaga]

I am not a rich man but the homeless guy needs the 50 cents more than I do. And I rather have homeless people collect cans than making street music to be honest...

[necovek]

While I don't see a connection between homeless people and street musicians, I am intrigued by your complaint of the street musicians?

My kids are fascinated by them, and as long as they are not taking up too much space to make it impossible to pass through the street (and if they do, I'll happily pass through their "stage"), I am quite happy to have the streets livened up by some music too. Not all of it is good or to my taste, but it certainly beats empty streets, especially so during cold winter months.

[MomoXenosaga]

They block the shopping streets and their music is terrible. There are no empty streets in the Netherlands on a Saturday and there is nothing more depressing than a Eastern European on an accordion.

[necovek]

Btw, here in Serbia (what you'd probably call Eastern Europe :), accordions are pretty rare (I guess they all went to Netherlands :)) other than in gypsy bands (but they rarely play in the streets other than when following weddings around), but violins (usually students), keyboards and guitars (number one, duh) are most common, but you get to hear a trumpet or a flute too. We are just classy like that (or there might be a musical school or two nearby in the part of Belgrade I see them in ;).

[larodi]

Eastern European music schools , and particular those with folklore specialties, have had a long history of master classes. It is often that one can find street talent with proper education, just because music industry pays very little in Eastern Europe.

It seems to me that in Western Europe you find mostly dégénérâtes and hippies with no formal music education at all.

One can know the difference only if he has lived in Eastern Europe.

[kwhitefoot]

Perhaps the better Eastern European accordion players stay home. I used to visit Krakow often on business and really enjoyed listening to musicians playing in the main square. Also it wasn't just accordion players, there were all sorts, amateurs, music students, professional musicians playing a wide variety of instruments and styles.

It was worth having some cash to put in the bucket.

[necovek]

Isn't it the people that gather around them to listen that block the streets? That's usually my experience.

[ratww]

I always assumed street musicians and homeless people were different people

[EE84M3i]

>Here all shops that sell such goods are required to accept the containers in return

How does this work for convenience stores or other non-supermarkets that incidentally sell drinks in cans/bottles? They have to have a machine?

[qw]

The machine is completely optional and just there to save time if they get a lot of deposits. They can handle it manually if they want to.

There is a limit to how large the deposit can be for stores without a machine. If you come with a big trash bag with bottles/cans, they have the right to refuse and refer you to a place with a machine (most grocery stores have machines)

[oaiey]

Well, not everyone needs to do a reverse vending machine. Just hand them back to the cashier and he returns you money. Goes that far that when a restaurant sells a full bottle they need to take it back.

We have this system also in Germany since the late 80s (I think) and it works very well. Current incentive ranges from 8ct (beer glass bottles ... beer lobby always has exceptions ;)) to 25ct (plastic bottles)

[faeyanpiraat]

Do the bottles need to be full size, or do they accept crushed ones?

[MandieD]

The lightweight plastic ones are "Einweg" ("single use"), and the deposit is to get the material back for recycling - as long as the deposit label will scan, it's accepted. It's easier to scan them in the automats if they're not crushed; my German husband does not seem to have fully internalized this, so I reinflate them when they get rejected.

Glass bottles (beer, juice, milk and yoghurt) are "Mehrweg" ("multi-use"), and they actually want a bottle to sterilize and reuse (preferably with metal lid in the case of the milk and joghurt bottles), so if it's broken, it's technically trash and should go in the Altglas (old glass) containers you see at least once in every city neighborhood.

[ratww]

> Glass bottles (beer, juice, milk and yoghurt) are "Mehrweg" ("multi-use")

There is also a special case of a Mehrweg 1L plastic bottle, used mostly by Coca Cola. It is also sterilised before reuse.

> preferably with metal lid in the case of the milk and joghurt bottles

Ooops, I didn't know that. Thank you.

[max_hammer]

If barcode is readable they accept semi-crushed bottles.

[biztos]

For plastic bottles at least for the machine you would have to un-crush it, it scans the bottle.

For beer bottles, I dunno, try it out and report back?

[faeyanpiraat]

It would be quite a long trip for me to try it.

[ratww]

How do you crush a beer bottle? They're always glass, no?

Or do you mean the beer can? In this case they can't be crushed, because the barcode has to be readable!

A friend tried hehe. If they're not too damaged you can put them back into shape, the machine is quite robust.

[bouvin]

At least here in Denmark, they very often do. If they do not, you can just hand the empty to the shopkeeper and they will reimburse you.

[gnopgnip]

In MI it is the same, small stores manually do it. You hand them a box with 12 cans in it and they credit you $1.20

[bell-cot]

My experience in MI* is that a fair number of stores can be rather sticky about returns - "we don't sell that brand", "did you buy it here?", "come back when the machine is fixed", etc.

Conveniently, I live in a large-enough urban area to just take my business elsewhere.

*Michigan, U.S.A.

[ratww]

Michigan's 10 cent rate is part of the plot of the legendary Seinfeld episode "The Bottle Deposit".

In this episode Kramer and Newman scheme a plan to deliver bottles from New York (where deposit was only 5c) to Michigan to cash in.

[ubercore]

At least where I am in Norway, there are far more grocery stores, but they're all smaller. So there are, relative to the US, fewer pure "convenience" stores, and more small groceries. Not sure if this holds true everywhere, but thought it added some context to your question.

[Semaphor]

Same in Germany, there is also the "Pfand gehört daneben" (Deposit [bottles] belong next [to the trashcan]) campaign, often with bottle holder on the trash can.

The whole deposit system is extremely convenient when you are drinking in the park or beach, where you usually don't want to bring all the bottles back again, but you'll get people coming by and ask if you have any deposit bottles to give to them.

[ls15]

> Same in Germany

Too many stores refuse to take bottle types that they don't sell though. I am often left with one or two bottles that technically should be eligible, but I have to take them back with me. The Norwegian way seems more convenient for consumers.

[Semaphor]

I think from a certain size on, they have to take them back. I understand smaller stores not wanting/having to bother. But maybe I'm wrong, after all I almost exclusively buy from REWE, so it's never something I encounter personally.

[distances]

I encounter this mostly when buying craft beer from a specialized store. These import bottles have Pfand too, but you can't return them to any machine. Have to remember which ones go back to the craft beer shop. Which is kinda obvious though, so I'm not complaining.

[ls15]

I think my most recent experience was a LIDL that wouldn't take a beer bottle from REWE.

[ratww]

Same. My local Lidl doesn't sell any Glas bottle at all, so that's why they don't take it.

[subpixel]

Isn’t there a decline in deposit bottle usage in Germany?

When I was a kid beer was delivered to your house by the crate and empties picked up. I was led to believe this has become less common, which would be regrettable bc it was elegantly efficient.

[ratww]

Every other month I see old products going from "disposable" to "with deposit". So I don't think so. The latest for me were the tiny juice bottles from Rewe. 25c Pfand.

[subpixel]

Edit: it's reusable/refillable bottles that I am remembering and referring to, and I'm happy to say the system in Germany seems to be strong, per Google.

[laulis]

There's Flaschenpost[1] in some cities, and afaik it's pretty popular. Me and my partner use it pretty regularly.

[1] https://www.flaschenpost.de/

[dark-star]

wow, what a badly designed site. I can't even look at it because it keeps pestering me with some popup that asks for my ZIP code (which I don't want to provide, as I just want to know what that page is all about)

[Semaphor]

Deliveries, I don't know. But every sparkling water, beer bottle has deposit as have all (?) cans. So a decline would be kinda impossible unless people stop buying those.

[dahfizz]

I live in the US, and all grocery stores I have been to have those reverse vending machines.

I also never bother to return my bottles and cans, because it's still a waste of my time. I put all bottles and cans in the recycling, along with anything else recyclable (on the backend, almost everything goes to a landfill anyway. But that's not my problem.)

Edit: for those asking, I have lived in multiple New England states, and bottle return machines have been common in all of them.

[umvi]

Where in the US? The US is like 50 different mini countries - I've never seen this and I've lived in 6 different states.

[geerlingguy]

I'm in the Midwest, USA, never seen such a reverse vending machine...

[jrochkind1]

I'm guessing the New England states were Maine, Massachusetts, Vermont, and/or Connecticut? (not new hampshire or rhode island, which don't have deposit laws).

My guess it that these machines are only going to be in states with deposit laws, and it's likely the grocery stores are legally required to take returns (whether by machine or human).

There are 10 states with bottle deposit laws (which mostly predate consumer recycling): California, Connecticut, Hawaii, Iowa, Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, New York, Oregon, and Vermont.

I suspect a much higher percentage of material actually gets recycled from bottles returned via deposit law mechanisms, compared to US standard "single stream" residential recycling, which are kind of notorious for their low rate of actual recycling (material taken away from homes actually being recycled) due to contamination and expense of separation.

[cgriswald]

I’ve never seen one at a supermarket in California. Even the recycling centers near me don’t have them, although I think some do.

I’ve seen them in Michigan, though.

[longbrass]

In many places while they may be required, their position is relegated to the back or hidden side of the building. I imagine this is because most shoppers do not return their bottles and cans… while some consider those who endeavor to do so “unsightly” or a “traffic hazard.”

[dfxm12]

I've not seen them in the US. Maybe I've seen them on Supermarket Sweep, though https://supermarketsweep.fandom.com/wiki/Recycling_Center :)

[bemmu]

At the large Finnish LAN party / demoscene event Assembly, there are people who go around all the desks collecting the cans and bottles people leave on them. I wonder how much they make doing this, considering there are thousands of desks with everyone consuming energy drinks and soda nonstop.

[mattl]

I once paid for most of my trip to a hacker event in Germany by picking up and returning all the discarded bottles of beer and Club Mate. It took maybe two hours.