[ChuckNorris89]

I suspect you'll get downvoted into oblivion for your PoV by the pro-Apple HN crowd and even though I do agree with you to some extent on the the high pricing (a basic M1 MacBook is half my NET take home pay as a dev in Europe, and double my rent costs) but value is subjective to most people, and for most, buying into the Apple ecosystem the value the ecosystem brings to their lives is justified, otherwise they wouldn't buy it in the first place (it's not a Prada handbag). Especially for high income earners from wealthy western countries, the cost of ownership can be easily justified for the convenience it brings.

But if you're not currently into the Apple ecosystem, and consider going all-in, the total costs of ownership are indeed a bit eye-watering for those without six figure jobs, if you disregard or don't need or don't care about the whole ecosystem and just look at the specs to price ratio of the laptop on it's own (I got a 13 inch QHD thin and light laptop with an 8 core Ryzen 5800U and 16GB RAM and 1TB NVME removable!!! SSD and 8 hour battery life for 750 Euros, where I can dual-boot Linux and Windows and run absolutely any (non-Apple)SW I could ever need).

So, since I don't need any component of the Apple ecosystem, I can't justify spending double the money to get more limited functionality in return, though I am tech savvy enough to use Windows and Linux and create for myself a similar (and subjectively better) ecosystem to Apple's for cheap/free using various OSS and proprietary SW.

However, lost of doctors I visit and most high-earners I know seem to own Macs and iPhones, so for them most likely it's worth the extra penny for the magic of the ecosystem where everything Justworks(TM) and they don't have to spend extra time learning and fiddling with tech related stuff they don't care for.

And TBH, if I didn't have to worry about money, and didn't have a career and hobbies that required the need to run X86_X64 binaries and Android apps, then I'd probably go all-in on the latest Apple MacBook Pros with extra-ports plus iPhone ecosystem for the convenience and time savings.

[kitsunesoba]

The other thing is that specs alone don’t tell the whole story. There’s plenty of x86 laptops that on paper have better looking specs than the MacBook Air, but few or none of them are as good at what makes a laptop a laptop — mainly, battery life and heat output. There are laptops that are thinner and lighter, like the Thinkpad X1 Nano that I own, but that thing can’t touch an Air in battery life, heat output, and in some aspects performance.

[ChuckNorris89]

> but few or none of them are as good at what makes a laptop a laptop — mainly, battery life and heat output

Meh, my Ryzen laptop, while not M1 level, handles performance, heat and battery just fine for my needs, considering it costs well under half the price of an equivalent M1, and, as a major necessity for me, is easier to repair/upgrade but most importantly, it runs both Windows and Linux plus all X86 binaries I could ever want natively and I have full control over it (on Linux at least), instead of the manufacturer dictating what I'm allowed to run on it.

M1s are great but they aren't the magic silver bullet that solves everyone's problems, as I have no use for benchmark topping chips that can't run the SW I use. <shrug>

[gigatexal]

Yes they're expensive. But how many HP/Dell/Lenovo etc laptops do you have from 2013 that still run like new? My 2013 MacBook Pro with an i7 and 16GB of ram still screams. The trackpad works, no keys fail, the screen is still good being retina. The amount of money paid divided by how long it has lasted me makes it a ~300 USD computer!*

*if replaced every year ... or a 900 usd computer if replaced every 3 years.

[peoplefromibiza]

> But how many HP/Dell/Lenovo etc laptops do you have from 2013 that still run like new?

many

I don't see many old macs around, because they're harder and more expensive to repair.

> if replaced every year

that's a big if.

The assumption is that Pro market will drive general adoption.

It's a false premise.

Pro market, especially Apple Pro market, it's predictive of exactly nothing.

[gurkendoktor]

> I don't see many old macs around

Just anecdata, but from walking through German trains, I disagree. I still see non-Retina MacBook Airs on some trays, for example, last sold in 2015.

Some Mac models are clearly more reliable and maintainable than others, see the butterfly keyboard fiasco. But I think companies should be judged by their better products, not the duds.

[gigatexal]

Yes 2016 to 2020 for keyboards was a terrible terrible black eye for my narrative. The damn keyboard fiasco.

[gigatexal]

> that's a big if. > The assumption is that Pro market will drive general adoption. > It's a false premise. > Pro market, especially Apple Pro market, it's predictive of exactly nothing.

Hah. It is actually. Apple releases the MacBook Air... what does the PC market do in lock step? Try to copy it. We can thank Apple for insisting on SSDs in the laptop for all our PC laptops having them. When Apple moves industries follow. That won't be like that forever but it is currently.

[dijit]

This is true for the good and bad.

Apple removed CD drives and Ethernet ports: everyone does.

Apple removes HDMI, many do.

Apple removes headphone jack from phones: everyone mocks, the follows.

[gigatexal]

> But how many HP/Dell/Lenovo etc laptops do you have from 2013 that still run like new? >> many

I find that hard to believe. You're claiming plastic race-to-the-bottom laptop pc makers are building machines that last as long as all aluminium premium Macs? Fat chance.

Re the software issue, yeah, that's a pain. I do plan on putting Linux on it when I replace it with another Mac laptop, probably a M1. But that just furthers my point that Apple makes the best, longest lasting hardware.

But to each their own.

[opan]

If you wanted your comparison to be as lopsided as it sounds like you were thinking it was, you should've listed different companies. All three of those companies make high-end business laptops (EliteBook, Latitude/Precision, ThinkPad) that are absolutely built to last and have a cult following for it (ThinkPads especially). You should've listed Acer or some of the gaming brands to represent the ones that don't seem to last. I can say personally I have a ThinkPad X220T (Sandy Bridge) and ThinkPad T440p (Haswell) that are still working great. I sold a ThinkPad T60p just a few years ago that was still working as well, although it was showing its age with its 2GB of RAM and 32bit CPU (upgradable to a 64bit Core 2 Duo in theory).

[peoplefromibiza]

> find that hard to believe. You're claiming plastic race-to-the-bottom laptop pc makers are building machines that last as long as all aluminium premium Macs? Fat chance.

I'm not saying that, at all.

I am saying that people keep reasonably priced hardware for longer than Mac owners because they don't have money to waste and can actually repair and upgrade them for cheap.

[gigatexal]

It’s not a waste. Referring to mac purchases as “wasteful” recycles tropes that are just false. That’s all I’m getting at. But I realize I’m shilling for a company that doesn’t need me to. Buy them, or don’t. It doesn’t matter to me or to Apple really. I prefer them for hardware. I like MacOS most of the time but sometimes yearn for Linux though things on my mac just work and I’m super keen to move to the M1 or M2.

[nopenopenopeno]

And you can no longer install the latest macOs, and linux still has battery/sleep problems with it. I know. I have the same one. Truly incredible hardware. I wish I wasn’t forced to replace it.

[stjohnswarts]

I think if you get snarky with the HN crowd and tell them they're bad people and living life the wrong way they will get snarky back. HN isn't a unimind, there are lots of opinions here. Look at the way you approached it, you did well, you had nuance, you didn't assault the reader.

[kaba0]

The thing is, I’m not sure your laptop is better than an M1, let alone the newer gen ones. Apple is really ahead in the CPU game and I say that as someone who was never there fan.

[ChuckNorris89]

It doesn't have to be better than an M1 when it's under half the price. It needs to fulfill my needs with minimum compromises, which it does admirably. The limitations of the Apple HW, OS and ecosystem would nullify any performance benefits the M1 could ever bring for me (A Ferrari might be the fastest car on the road but if I need a 4x4 to get to the top of the mountain where my work or leisure is, then owning a Ferrari is not much use for me, is it?)

Therefore I am more comfortable buying something that, while not the fastest in the world at topping benchmarks, is plenty fast enough (faster than anything Apple ever made pre-M1 which many users still use just fine), fits my needs better, is easier to repair/upgrade, and as an added bonus, is significantly cheaper than an M1, so I can take the difference in money I would have spent on an M1 and buying into the Apple ecosystem and put it into Apple stock and I'd be even better off in the long run :)) Everybody wins.

[kaba0]

My biggest gripe with laptops have been the battery life. They were basically glorified PCs with like few hours inside them when not plugged in.

This is solved by the M1, that’s all I say. Your laptop is still much more expensive than a significantly better desktop PC.

[ChuckNorris89]

>My biggest gripe with laptops have been the battery life. They were basically glorified PCs with like few hours inside them when not plugged in.

Online reviews show multiple laptops with near full-day battery life (>8h) exist if you do some googling, so that's almost a non-issue ATM if that's your main concern.

>Your laptop is still much more expensive than a significantly better desktop PC.

Of course it is, but so what? I need a laptop, not a desktop.

[peoplefromibiza]

well, truth is Apple MacBook Air 13 with 16 GB of RAM is listed at € 1.429 on the Italian Apple web site.

My sister bought a Lenovo thinkbook with a Ryzen 7, 16 GB of RAM (upgradable up to 32) for € 729

My 3D artist friend an Asus ROG 14 with an NVidia GPU and 32GB of RAM for € 1.780 and he's using it to render complex scenes.

Does the increase in performance justify the ridiculous price?

It doesn't, in my opinion.

Also, Apple doesn't want to be a mainstream company, their market is never gonna be huge, premium prices are only justifiable if the product is somewhat exclusive.

[dagw]

My company has Lenovo Thinkpads as their standard laptops, and they cost basically the same as MacBooks. So it's not like Apple are charging uniquely high prices for their laptops

[cruano]

So your 3D artist friend got a 1-pound-heavier machine with a plastic build that still gets beat in a single-core CPU benchmark, and he payed extra for that privilege. Let me know how it goes when he drops it.

Not to mention the unusable trackpad and keyboard, and the lack of video camera. Or even the fact that this machine gets super hot and loud, while an air doesn't even have fans.

[peoplefromibiza]

it's not plastic.

M1 Macs can't do what that laptops does.

Simple as that.

People are not stupid, that might surprise you, but people use their money for the best, usually.

> Not to mention the unusable trackpad and keyboard

Have you ever heard of a device called "mouse"?

My friend uses another device entirely, it's called "WACOM CINTIQ PRO TOUCH 32"

because he cares about eronomics in his job, specific to his job, he doesn't need to show off with his friends.

> and the lack of video camera

are you familiar with the concept of a working machine?

> Or even the fact that this machine gets super hot and loud

have you ever thought that people don't care about it, because they are working and their job is not making less noise possible?

that's a feature only if your job requires absolute silence, rendering at X minutes per frame is not one of them.

People just don't care.

It's like saying that your washing machine is noisy.

Do you stare at it while it washes your underwear?

[cruano]

> M1 Macs can't do what that laptops does

And vice versa. Try using it for hours just on battery.

>Have you ever heard of a device called "mouse"?

Then you can't use it on your lap, need a bigger desk, etc.

>are you familiar with the concept of a working machine?

Are you familiar with the concept of online meetings ? Or do you work as a hermit ?

>because they are working and their job is not making less noise possible?

Not to mention audio people that do require that, but I'm sure your coworkers wouldn't appreciate the fan noise blasting each time you unmute

>Do you stare at it while it washes your underwear?

Do you leave the room when using your computer ?

[dijit]

The price seems to be comparable to premium lines of PC's.

Dell XPS and HP Elitebooks often meet or exceed the price of comparable MacBooks.

[stjohnswarts]

I find the hardware in the more "elite" laptops lasts longer. In 2015 I bought an Asus ROG middle of the road priced computer and have had to replace the hard drive in it and two keyboards. I have a macbook from the same year and 0 problems, and use it more than the Asus.

[peoplefromibiza]

> The price seems to be comparable to premium lines of PC's.

How many times people said that the Air is the "entry level" "low budget" Mac?

Which one is true?

Is it a luxury product or an entry level one?

I can quote many comments saying both things in the same thread.

Anyway, no company pays Lenovo full price and their discount policies are far more aggressive than Apple's.

There's a reason: Apple doesn't undersell, they don't care.

Lenovo, Dell, HP make volumes, they don't care to be a luxury brand.

The X1 carbon, paid full price, is for people who have money to waste.

[dijit]

> Is it a luxury product or an entry level one?

Obviously: Both.

The absolute "entry" point is the Mac mini.

The MacBook Air a low spec "luxury" quality device for people who want a well built laptop (that has decent battery life and a good screen) but do not have heavy demands on performance.

If your argument is discounts then I don't support that pricing model (unpredictable frenetic oscillation) anyway.

And, yah, if you're a company you get a flat rate discount based on volume with Apple products.

[stjohnswarts]

I bet the hardware will be working 10 years from now as well. Apples tends to use great hardware even if it is sometimes a little underperformative compared to PCs at the same price point.

[dijit]

I hesitate to say such a thing given the keyboard fiasco and the time nvidia sold them a batch of GPUs that got so hot they desoldered themselves.

I have a MacBook from 2011 that works perfectly well (almost as good as the day I got it, save the battery and a few bits of corrosion on the edge of the front where your palms rest). I’ve definitely cycled through other laptops much faster than that.

[peoplefromibiza]

my 3 Mac laptops sitting on a shelf because the batteries gave up multiple times are laughing at you.

I spent on them a fortune in total, and they broke, pathetically.

I tried, believe me.

Mac HW quality is just another myth.

[simonh]

Why can’t a luxury product range have entry level models? Even Ferrari has cars ranging in price from $220k up to $1m. Search for “Ferrari entry-level” and you’ll get plenty of hits using that phrase for various Portofino, Spider and Roma configurations.

[peoplefromibiza]

That's not what they say: they say it's cheap.

Luxury is never cheap.

An M1 can't be both entry level and better than high end models at the same price tag, at the same time (that's what they say).

They are not in fact.

Please leave Ferrari alone, they actually make cars that last for decades.

Apple doesn't.

[dijit]

I can’t make this comment without seeming condescending, but please understand me when I say that I don’t intend it that way.

You’re having an emotional reaction to a brand and a product, and this is not ideal.

I struggle to deal with people who are emotional about brands, both love and hate because I find that there’s no room for objectivity or discussion. There are circumstances where interacting with a brand can be wholly toxic (Oracle) or largely good (Linux, if you can call it a brand). But when you only respond in an emotional way it prevents an intellectually curious discussion.

Stop thinking of these as “Apple” computers and instead look at them as.. computers.

It makes the trade offs a lot more obvious when you remove the emotive element.

[simonh]

I’d love to see a reference where Apple or anyone else says their products are cheap. It might be possible to argue they are good value for various reasons such as long product lifetimes, but that’s not the same thing as cheap.

> An M1 can't be both entry level and better than high end models at the same price tag, at the same time (that's what they say).

I have no idea what you’re referring to. Apple has some laptop models that are less expensive, I might even say cheaper, than others. That’s just comparing them relative to other Apple products though. The MacBook Air is cheaper than a MacBook Pro, that’s not the same thing as saying it’s objectively cheap relative to laptops generally. These are the entry level products in the MacBook product range.

You can get capabilities from even the low end M1 MacBooks that you can’t get from even very expensive notebooks from other manufacturers. You can get faster notebooks elsewhere, or lighter notebooks, or… actually no, you can’t get notebooks with better battery life anywhere else. However you can’t get the combination of lightness power and battery duration of even a low end M1 MacBook anywhere else at any price. That can absolutely make it better than more expensive models from other manufacturers in ways some people find very important.

[dmitriid]

> An M1 can't be both entry level and better than high end models at the same price tag, at the same time

Yes. Yes they can. Because that's their new entry model in the new line-up. And can be both entry level and better than high-end models from the previous line-up.

These are entry models for Apple products. So no sense comparing them with entry models for other products (which could be shoddy plastic netbooks for all those brands care)

[stjohnswarts]

There is a middle path here...

[stjohnswarts]

Not everyone has the same end user needs as your friends, so they're choices are just as valid.

[peoplefromibiza]

And who said they are not valid?